Developing young players in AHL

[sempuki]

The NHL has gotten younger, but there's no damage that can come from learning how to play against men in a teaching league against lesser competition.

Dube, as much better as he is compared to other options in Calgary, should be lighting up AHL goalies and learning how to protect himself against men. Not getting frustrated and concussions or worse on the 4th line straight out of Junior.

[codynw]

The problem is, the Flames don't exactly have a great history of actually developing players through their farm system. Almost all of their homegrown players jumped straight from juniors/NCAA with no time in the minors.

[savardandjokinen]

Gaudreau (college) Monahan (juniors) Lindholm (trade)
Tkachuk (junior) Backlund (developed in system) Frolik (free agency)
Bennett (juniors) Jankowski (developed in system) Neal (free agency)
Dube (juniors) Ryan (free agency) Hathaway (developed in system)
Czarnik (free agency)

Giordano (developed in system) Brodie (developed in system)
Hanifin (trade) Hamonic (trade)
Valimaki (juniors) Andersson (developed in system)
Stone (trade) Prout (trade)

Smith (trade)
Rittich (developed in system)

So yeah, not too many players developed through the minors

[sempuki]

What you said has no relation to what I said.

[savardandjokinen]

Then change the thread title

[SeanCharles]

I have a hard time figuring out what to do with Dube because he has been pulverized and stymied so much in his early career.

Despite all that he continues to produce something positively to the team on a consistent basis so it makes me second guess thinking he should go down..

He's an NHL talent, that much is certain but yes he does still need to develop..

At the NHL vs AHL level..for him specifically is difficult to say..

[Rick M.]

Originally Posted by SeanCharles

I have a hard time figuring out what to do with Dube because he has been pulverized and stymied so much in his early career.

Despite all that he continues to produce something positively to the team on a consistent basis so it makes me second guess thinking he should go down..

He's an NHL talent, that much is certain but yes he does still need to develop..

At the NHL vs AHL level..for him specifically is difficult to say..

Dube’s problem is a lack of strength. He is easily stapled to the boards or run over. He has plenty of speed, skill and smarts.

[sempuki]

Originally Posted by savardandjokinen

Then change the thread title

Easier to expect you to read.

[1qqaaz]

I think our AHL teams have been fine at developing forwards.
It's the defense and especially goaltending development that has been abysmal.

Andersson is the first former AHL-product on defense since TJ Brodie. That's nearly a decade of ineptitude.

The number of goalies who played 63 + NHL games and played for Calgary's AHL teams since 1982? Just one: Curtis McElhinney.

That's 25+ draft picks that have amounted to nothing. About a dozen of these goalies were 1st or 2nd round picks. This is over a very long period of time: practically nothing in the organization was consistent for 36 years. 36 years of goalie development failure obviously cannot be placed on one individual.

I think it's been more of a development issue than a drafting issue.
Guys like Mason McDonald (2nd round), Andrei Medvedev (2nd round) and Brent Krahn (1st round) were probably bad draft picks. They didn't make much sense at any point in time.

Other guys looked great after being drafted. They put up fantastic junior numbers, and even won World Junior Championships or NCAA titles.
It was the AHL where their development suddenly halted (Jon Gillies is probably the best example - except for him, you could argue it was an injury).

Some of them did develop in the AHL. It was the NHL in which they could not break in. Ortio and Irving put up fine numbers in the AHL. But they didn't develop into NHL goaltenders. Goalies can have good AHL stats, but the Flames development personnel also has to prepare them to succeed in the NHL.

Overall, I think player and prospect development is the single largest problem with the Flames. But at least they've been a lot better than the Oilers in this regard.

[Ped]

For me development is always one of the hardest things to quantify.


That's not to say I don't believe it exists; there are obviously teams that are better at it versus teams that are consistently terrible, which points to obviously an organization effect somewhere.


But teams have very little to do with developing NCAA players for example, or players in don't play junior here but stay in Europe.


So how do you define how much is on the organization and how much is on the player? Draft day is littered with can't miss prospects who then miss. Highly-touted players or highly-ranked players fall off.


I don't think the organization can be blamed every time, but where do you draw that line? There are players that just don't develop after their draft year, or after a couple of years, and then everyone looks back and says "I saw that."


Daigle is an example. The next great one, was a huge disappointment, and then people look back and say "hey, he used his speed in junior and it didn't work in the bigs." So did the Senators not try to help him or did he just think he was good enough and didn't need to adapt?


Sometimes guys just don't want to listen to what's good for their career. That's true in any industry. Teams usually always get the blame but I think there has to be a point with some players where the onus is on the player.

[shadowlord]

Originally Posted by savardandjokinen

Gaudreau (college) Monahan (juniors) Lindholm (trade)
Tkachuk (junior) Backlund (developed in system) Frolik (free agency)
Bennett (juniors) Jankowski (developed in system) Neal (free agency)
Dube (juniors) Ryan (free agency) Hathaway (developed in system)
Czarnik (free agency)

Giordano (developed in system) Brodie (developed in system)
Hanifin (trade) Hamonic (trade)
Valimaki (juniors) Andersson (developed in system)
Stone (trade) Prout (trade)

Smith (trade)
Rittich (developed in system)

So yeah, not too many players developed through the minors

I wouldn't necessarily say that because you have only looked at the make-up of the current roster.

You also have consider that some players are developed within our system, but then end up being traded for other assets (Ferland, Baerstchi, Granlund), or that we end up losing to other teams but become NHL-regulars (Byron). There are probably other examples I missed.

Even if they don't end up playing for the Flames, having going through our system gave them some value to a team /somewhere/.

[crapshoot]

Originally Posted by sempuki

Easier to expect you to read.

Well, it's not like it's crystal clear wheter you talk about players in general or Dube specifically since the thread title and the content of the post are very different.

In general I Think the Flames are doing a decent job on identifying which players goes where. I can't think of any recent examples of players whose carreer trajectory is derailed due to decisions made by management, and I don't think Dube will fall into that category either.

[Erick Estrada]

As has been said Dube has the skating and skills but he's getting manhandled at the NHL level. I think playing a full season in the AHL would be good for him so he can get more ice time. Mangiapane will probably deserve another look at some point.

[David Struch]

Originally Posted by shadowlord

I wouldn't necessarily say that because you have only looked at the make-up of the current roster.

You also have consider that some players are developed within our system, but then end up being traded for other assets (Ferland, Baerstchi, Granlund), or that we end up losing to other teams but become NHL-regulars (Byron). There are probably other examples I missed.

Even if they don't end up playing for the Flames, having going through our system gave them some value to a team /somewhere/.

Patrick Sieloff
Brandon Hickey
Adam Fox

[N-E-B]

I still think the NHL is where he needs to be. He’s too good for the AHL. Once pucks start going in for him I think he’ll get on a roll.

[Strange Brew]

I think he could use some time in the AHL. Let’s see him light it up down there and get some scoring confidence.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I think he could use some time in the AHL. Let’s see him light it up down there and get some scoring confidence.

Like Mangiapane's AHL scoring translated into NHL success? Or Poiriet or Shinkaruk or Street? Or Wotherspoon defensively? I don't think Sven's game improved down there - it has only gotten marginally better by playing NHL minutes. By all accounts Lazar is doing fine in the AHL, but I don't think he's about to be called up.

Conversely, Byron never did much in the AHL, but got way better in the NHL. I'd say Ferland found his game more in the NHL than in the minors. Sometimes you learn by doing things at the hardest level, rather than excelling at an easier level.

I suspect many of those saying he should be sent down are really itching to see Mangiapane called up, for some reason. I'd say Dube has looked better in the NHL than Mangiapane ever did. Everyone says he's really close to potting a few and I bet he is receiving the same message internally. The biggest adjustment from the AHL to the NHL is the speed of the play, and IMO Dube isn't behind in that area (like, say, Sven was).

If it's simply a matter of strength, again, I think he's better off up here, taking games off when necessary, but training with the likes of Gio, Frolik and other fitness freaks on the Flames.

[sa226]

Dube is in that weird place where, I think he belongs and he doesn't look out of place. But I wouldn't be surprised if the mental side is getting to him a bit. No goals and some big hits. You don't want him to wilt and lose everything that helped him make the team in the first place. But also, I think the team needs his ability in the bottom 6.

As an aside, my negative nancy prediction for the day: I don't think Mangiapane will ever pan out. He almost reminds me of Granlund in a way. The type of game he plays, he doesn't have the high end ability to play and contribute in a top 6 role, and he's out of place in the bottom 6. I hope I'm wrong, but from what I saw last season and this years' pre-season, I'm not convinced.

[Erick Estrada]

Mangiapane has played in only 10 NHL games in a couple of different stints. Dube has been able to play in 14 straight games collecting 2 assists. I'm not sure how you can say he's been markedly better. I just don't see the rush with Dube especially seeing how he's getting physically abused. Jankowski for that matter could probably benefit from playing top minutes in the AHL. It was Brad Treliving after all that said that there's never been a player that had his development hurt from spending too much time in the AHL.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Like Mangiapane's AHL scoring translated into NHL success? Or Poiriet or Shinkaruk or Street? Or Wotherspoon defensively? I don't think Sven's game improved down there - it has only gotten marginally better by playing NHL minutes. By all accounts Lazar is doing fine in the AHL, but I don't think he's about to be called up.

Conversely, Byron never did much in the AHL, but got way better in the NHL. I'd say Ferland found his game more in the NHL than in the minors. Sometimes you learn by doing things at the hardest level, rather than excelling at an easier level.

I suspect many of those saying he should be sent down are really itching to see Mangiapane called up, for some reason. I'd say Dube has looked better in the NHL than Mangiapane ever did. Everyone says he's really close to potting a few and I bet he is receiving the same message internally. The biggest adjustment from the AHL to the NHL is the speed of the play, and IMO Dube isn't behind in that area (like, say, Sven was).

If it's simply a matter of strength, again, I think he's better off up here, taking games off when necessary, but training with the likes of Gio, Frolik and other fitness freaks on the Flames.

I don't agree with any of your comparables though.

Byron and Ferland are successes, They started in the AHL.

Byron was 24 when he played his 50th NHL game.
Ferland was 23 when he played his 50th game.

Shinkaruk, Poirier have never showed they were good enough for the NHL. Are you suggesting that's where they should have been the whole time? Mangiapane has played all of 10 NHL games. He is 22 years old.

Dube is 20 years old. The nearest Flames comparables are Bennett and Lazar. Lazar never found his scoring touch in the NHL and now he cleared waivers and is playing in the AHL at age 23.

Sam Bennett scored 18 goals in his rookie season. Dube is on pace for.... 0 goals.

I look at all the players you mentioned and it is more of an argument to have him spend some time in the AHL IMO.