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Old 03-03-2021, 07:54 AM   #10921
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I think there are people who want effectively zero death, yes and want us shut down until there is a vaccine distributed to the entire population. The goal posts have moved constantly from "flatten the curve" to COVID Zero.

I would be fine opening up fully, right now, with a mask mandate and letting whatever happens, happen.
Perfect

Which of your loved ones will you be ok with dying?

Because ultimately that is what will happen for some families.
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Old 03-03-2021, 07:55 AM   #10922
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You say this, and yet youíve thanked this on the same page.



Iím not in favour of opening everything and just letting the virus run rampant, but I do favour a middle of the road approach. We have crossed the line from concerns about our healthcare system and are moving towards case counts and trying to stem the spread entirely. As the vaccine is more widely spread, the case count matters less and less. If we have 100 new cases today and itís all people under 40, itís far less of a concern than what we saw earlier. We know that, and itís not a stretch to suggest that.

I would also add that we have a pretty good idea of where new cases are these days. To the surprise of no one, itís meat packing facilities, correctional facilities and congregated living. Of course there are other places, but thatís the vast majority. Has there been a documented of someone in a library contracted the virus? I highly doubt it, but we still had to have these closed for months. Would a retail store that has masking and distancing measures in place be cause for concern if they could have a more normal number of people inside? Almost surely. Instead weíre glossing over common sense and people line up outside. (What in the world people need so badly at IKEA is a whole other discussion, but I digress)

Anyway, Iím fine with the masking, social distancing and all of those precautions. I follow all of this religiously. But, that doesnít mean I agree with the continued hammering of small businesses and insufficient supports for them while that happens.
Thatís not what GGG meant. Meaning we wouldnít be faced with another potential lockdown before distributing vaccines to everyone.
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Old 03-03-2021, 08:12 AM   #10923
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Thatís not what GGG meant. Meaning we wouldnít be faced with another potential lockdown before distributing vaccines to everyone.
I guess thatís fair. Iím not sure that wider opening now would cause that anyway though. Spring is right around the corner, and the vaccines are progressing at a good pace, so everyday we inch closer to the end of this.
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Old 03-03-2021, 08:23 AM   #10924
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This is of course assuming vaccines have long-term efficacy and will be resistant to variant strains (and that they are able to produce boosters to combat variant strains in an efficient manner, deliver on those boosters, distribute them to the populace, ensure the populace actually shows up to receive them, etc.)

Like yeah, this is going to take a while, even with modern technology pushing up timelines quickly. The continuous cries to open things up are quite literally slowing down the entire process.
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Old 03-03-2021, 09:07 AM   #10925
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Originally Posted by corporatejay View Post
I think there are people who want effectively zero death, yes and want us shut down until there is a vaccine distributed to the entire population. The goal posts have moved constantly from "flatten the curve" to COVID Zero.

I would be fine opening up fully, right now, with a mask mandate and letting whatever happens, happen.

We did much less than open up fully in the fall and then we started killing 20-30 people a day. You want more than that for what has proven to be very similar economic outcomes?

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Old 03-03-2021, 09:08 AM   #10926
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Originally Posted by corporatejay View Post
I think there are people who want effectively zero death, yes and want us shut down until there is a vaccine distributed to the entire population. The goal posts have moved constantly from "flatten the curve" to COVID Zero.

I would be fine opening up fully, right now, with a mask mandate and letting whatever happens, happen.
Boy, you've been really really wrong a lot throughout this whole thing, but this might be the most incorrect post you've made. Impressive.
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Old 03-03-2021, 09:13 AM   #10927
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I haven't seen anyone calling for zero deaths or no risk, but it seems like some people think an airliner worth of old people going down every week is ok, so long as their lives aren't impacted.
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Old 03-03-2021, 09:31 AM   #10928
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Why does it have to be province wide again?

These broad measures are stupid. Smaller communities have seen little to no spikes even during the worst of the pandemic.

We have less ability to handle the lockdowns the measures in place financially because there are a lot more barriers to accessing funding (income limits, etc) for non-profits and sports groups and small businesses. We rebound slower and companies and groups die faster because we don't have the same resources as cities.

The non-profit that me and my family have run for 35 years is almost about to crater. I am paying for the expenses out of my own pocket and will never recoup those expenses.

Our members are almost 2% of the community population and their children, which is massive for any community group, much less one in a smaller community. That could be gone soon, along with dance, gymnastics and similar groups that require facilities to operate.

Why does my community and the smaller, less impacted communities, continue to suffer because people in the cities can't wear their ####ing masks or stop ignoring restrictions.

I am insanely annoyed by the government, but also by everyone's flippant disregard for the health of their community groups and businesses.

When everything returns to whatever normal there is, you guys better not be bitching about how many of the sports, groups, resources and businesses you enjoyed in the communities are gone, or not bitch when fees, etc are triple fold because they are on their death beds.

FFS.


Edit: Sorry. Peak Frustation this morning. You guys aren't the problem. Just gotta get through it!
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Old 03-03-2021, 09:39 AM   #10929
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Ontario government is running a new commercial, I just saw it yesterday and was frankly taken aback.

The commercial ends with the following message:

"Until we all get the Vaccine, stay home, save lives"

Is this common new messaging on COVID? Stay home until EVERYONE has received the vaccine? Thats not going to be until well into 2022, none of these vaccines are even approved for kids yet.

So I should stay at home for another year? Even after all the high risk people have been vaccinated? Thats absurd.

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/ontario-co...154811525.html
This is a real concern for me. When the message continually changes it will lead to people tuning out, not believing, fatigue, and flat out refusal to comply in increasing numbers. The various levels of government need to be careful in the message they are sending. I won't argue that as the situation changes the strategy needs to modify to deal with it and we are dealing with unknowns but at the same time continually moving the goalposts is not good either. People need hope and to see a finish line, we are continually taking this away and sooner or later we will just stop listening to the message. We've gone from flatten the curve to don't overwhelm the health system to variants are here - we need to continue lockdowns and now to nothing changes until everyone is vaccinated. It just keeps getting pushed back every time the end is in sight. And every time it does I see and hear more and more people who are done with it and not following the guidelines anymore.
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Old 03-03-2021, 09:44 AM   #10930
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I haven't seen anyone calling for zero deaths or no risk, but it seems like some people think an airliner worth of old people going down every week is ok, so long as their lives aren't impacted.
Does that change with the vaccines and elderly/vulnerable being targeted? I don't want to see many deaths, but I think that the targeted vaccinations are an enormous change. It's great to look back and say "look what happened in Novemeber", but things have changed.
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Old 03-03-2021, 09:47 AM   #10931
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Originally Posted by Wastedyouth View Post
Why does it have to be province wide again?

These broad measures are stupid. Smaller communities have seen little to no spikes even during the worst of the pandemic.

We have less ability to handle the lockdowns the measures in place financially because there are a lot more barriers to accessing funding (income limits, etc) for non-profits and sports groups and small businesses. We rebound slower and companies and groups die faster because we don't have the same resources as cities.

The non-profit that me and my family have run for 35 years is almost about to crater. I am paying for the expenses out of my own pocket and will never recoup those expenses.

Our members are almost 2% of the community population and their children, which is massive for any community group, much less one in a smaller community. That could be gone soon, along with dance, gymnastics and similar groups that require facilities to operate.

Why does my community and the smaller, less impacted communities, continue to suffer because people in the cities can't wear their ####ing masks or stop ignoring restrictions.

I am insanely annoyed by the government, but also by everyone's flippant disregard for the health of their community groups and businesses.

When everything returns to whatever normal there is, you guys better not be bitching about how many of the sports, groups, resources and businesses you enjoyed in the communities are gone, or not bitch when fees, etc are triple fold because they are on their death beds.

FFS.


Edit: Sorry. Peak Frustation this morning. You guys aren't the problem. Just gotta get through it!
Look at this page and sort by active cases per capita. Rural areas are at the top of the list, partly due to statistics - per capita changes a lot when the the sample size is small. Smoky Lake County is the current hot spot in Alberta and you have to go down to #18 on the list before you reach the first urban area.

Edmonton and Calgary have the highest active cases but are not the only problem area.

I hear the same argument from my brother and mom, both of who live in rural areas. There is no Covid here, it's a big city problem so why do we need to suffer the same restrictions as you city dwellers is the common message I hear from them.

https://www.alberta.ca/maps/covid-19-status-map.htm
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Old 03-03-2021, 09:56 AM   #10932
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Originally Posted by corporatejay View Post
I think there are people who want effectively zero death, yes and want us shut down until there is a vaccine distributed to the entire population. The goal posts have moved constantly from "flatten the curve" to COVID Zero.

I would be fine opening up fully, right now, with a mask mandate and letting whatever happens, happen.
Who has moved the goal posts to COVID Zero?
Specifically.
I don't see anyone saying that.
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Old 03-03-2021, 09:57 AM   #10933
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Does that change with the vaccines and elderly/vulnerable being targeted? I don't want to see many deaths, but I think that the targeted vaccinations are an enormous change. It's great to look back and say "look what happened in Novemeber", but things have changed.
I think it does, and I assume the modelling will take that into account. The question is whether 150k vaccinations is enough to move the needle in a province of 4.4MM people.
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Old 03-03-2021, 09:57 AM   #10934
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Look at this page and sort by active cases per capita. Rural areas are at the top of the list, partly due to statistics - per capita changes a lot when the the sample size is small. Smoky Lake County is the current hot spot in Alberta and you have to go down to #18 on the list before you reach the first urban area.

Edmonton and Calgary have the highest active cases but are not the only problem area.

I hear the same argument from my brother and mom, both of who live in rural areas. There is no Covid here, it's a big city problem so why do we need to suffer the same restrictions as you city dwellers is the common message I hear from them.

https://www.alberta.ca/maps/covid-19-status-map.htm
Red Deer is 5th on the list, GP is 9th? If you sort by capita, the entire list on the first page is pretty much urban centers.

Yes, there are some hot spots, in rural communities. No doubt. And those communities should implement and continue with additional measures.

But not every small community has many if any cases and we are all sitting here under intense restrictions, wonder what the F is the point.
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Old 03-03-2021, 09:58 AM   #10935
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I think it does, and I assume the modelling will take that into account. The question is whether 150k vaccinations is enough to move the needle in a province of 4.4MM people.
Sure, but it's not just 150k people; it's the most exposed and vulnerable. The people with statistically the worst outcomes. To me that impacts the modeling further, which is why I say that the case count becomes increasingly meaningless as we march on.
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Old 03-03-2021, 10:01 AM   #10936
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Red Deer is 5th on the list, GP is 9th? If you sort by capita, the entire list on the first page is pretty much urban centers.

Yes, there are some hot spots, in rural communities. No doubt. And those communities should implement and continue with additional measures.

But not every small community has many if any cases and we are all sitting here under intense restrictions, wonder what the F is the point.
I missed those and stand corrected on the first urban area being #18.
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Old 03-03-2021, 10:02 AM   #10937
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Look at this page and sort by active cases per capita. Rural areas are at the top of the list, partly due to statistics - per capita changes a lot when the the sample size is small. Smoky Lake County is the current hot spot in Alberta and you have to go down to #18 on the list before you reach the first urban area.

Edmonton and Calgary have the highest active cases but are not the only problem area.

I hear the same argument from my brother and mom, both of who live in rural areas. There is no Covid here, it's a big city problem so why do we need to suffer the same restrictions as you city dwellers is the common message I hear from them.

https://www.alberta.ca/maps/covid-19-status-map.htm
Yeah the current trend is that rural is more active than urban in terms of per capita new cases.

Provincials restrictions, in my opinion, are much easier to understand and follow as a whole. It also reduces the likelihood of spread between regions and should keep outbreaks more isolated. With regional restrictions people are more likely to travel between regions for services that might not be available locally which drives up the risk of spread.
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Old 03-03-2021, 10:04 AM   #10938
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Who has moved the goal posts to COVID Zero?
Specifically.
I don't see anyone saying that.
Arguably the Atlantic provinces seem to have had that mindset but that has been since day 1 so they haven't really moved the goalposts.
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Old 03-03-2021, 10:07 AM   #10939
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Sure, but it's not just 150k people; it's the most exposed and vulnerable. The people with statistically the worst outcomes. To me that impacts the modeling further, which is why I say that the case count becomes increasingly meaningless as we march on.
I'm not sure it becomes meaningless. 70 and older used about 40% of the hospital beds to date through the pandemic. We still have to manage the capacity of the system, and at elevated case counts we have the potential to tax it. Once we get everyone over 50 vaccinated that should eliminate 60% of the hospital usage to date, that's when the things change substantially.

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Old 03-03-2021, 10:09 AM   #10940
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I think some of the reasoning is it doesn't take much in a small community to go form low cases to a high percentage of population. They also don't have the hospital capacity to deal with quickly ballooning cases.

I do think the province could have done a better job of segregating communities with outbreaks. I think we needed to have a good baseline level of restrictions, then surgically apply strict lock downs where needed. But it's tough with people moving around so much, and going to neighboring communities.
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