Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community
Old 04-06-2018, 01:53 PM   #361
rubecube
Franchise Player
 
rubecube's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Victoria
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffFletcher View Post
Do you have a source for this?



It's not a matter of deserving. But from what I've read on the subject, these factors correlate strongly to social outcomes:

Marriage status of parents
Education of parents
Affluence of parents
Impulse control
Cultural valuation of education
IQ
Peer group

If you have the time, do give a listen to the CBC interview I linked to - it deals with some of this stuff.
Again, this is just such a dishonest attempt at debate. No one is disputing that all of these categories play a significant role in social outcomes, we're questioning why certain groups are disproportionately represented in the the negative margins of these categories, because biologically it doesn't make sense that the amount of melanin in your skin would somehow correlate with a weaker desire to form and maintain a nuclear family.
rubecube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2018, 02:00 PM   #362
icecube
In the Sin Bin
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: compton
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaramonLS View Post
No it isn't. Otherwise there would be almost no whites experiencing poor outcomes in society. Which we both know isn't true.

Economic status is the single biggest factor in poor outcomes. It doesn't even come close.
Here's an interesting statistic: For every dollar of wealth that whites have, Asian households have 83 cents but blacks have 6 cents and Hispanics have 7 cents (US Census Bureau 2014)

I agree with you that economic status is the biggest issue. What is the reason for the gap?

Why are black people, indigenous people, other people of colour, so damn poor in comparison? What is the single biggest reason in your estimation?
icecube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2018, 02:12 PM   #363
CaramonLS
Retired
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rubecube View Post
Why do people treat this as if it's somehow disputed by the left or "SJWs?" It's incredibly disingenuous.
Not sure why you're quoting me because I was responding to this quote:

Quote:
Systemic oppression, both historic and ongoing is BY FAR BY FAR BY FAR the biggest factor contributing to bad outcomes, hence why it gets the most focus. What else even comes close? Every example you can come up with is probably connected or strongly correlated. Poverty. Health outcomes. You name it.
Icecube is disputing your assertion.
CaramonLS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2018, 02:15 PM   #364
icecube
In the Sin Bin
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: compton
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaramonLS View Post
Not sure why you're quoting me because I was responding to this quote:



Icecube is disputing your assertion.
I am?
icecube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2018, 02:18 PM   #365
PepsiFree
Participant
Participant
 
PepsiFree's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffFletcher View Post
I haven't read 12 Rules, and I'm no 'fan' of Peterson's.
Wait, you gave a book review 1/5 on content without having actually read the book itís referring to?
PepsiFree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2018, 02:20 PM   #366
troutman
Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer
 
troutman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Winebar Kensington
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaramonLS View Post
I think he is right, people are giving up religion without fully understanding all the other aspects of it that go along with it. Things like culture, community, ritual and structure. While I fully endorse a society that moves further away for religion, I think there are some unintended voids that need to be addressed or filled - things that atheism will never fully be able to fulfill.
I don't see how a Humanist life is any less "spiritual" (for lack of a better word) than a religious perspective.

There are moments when one feels free from one’s own identification with human limitations and inadequacies. At such moments one imagines that one stands on some spot of a small planet, gazing in amazement at the cold yet profoundly moving beauty of the eternal, the unfathomable; life and death flow into one, and there is neither evolution nor destiny, only being. - Albert E.

http://humanistlife.org.uk/2014/08/1...-and-humanism/
__________________
https://www.mergenlaw.com/
http://cjsw.com/program/fossil-records/
twitter/instagram @troutman1966

Last edited by troutman; 04-06-2018 at 02:29 PM.
troutman is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to troutman For This Useful Post:
Old 04-06-2018, 02:25 PM   #367
CliffFletcher
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: May 2006
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rubecube View Post
Why do people treat this as if it's somehow disputed by the left or "SJWs?" It's incredibly disingenuous.
It's because the amount of energy and attention progressives give to condemning racial and gender disparities dwarfs the amount they give to economic disparity by an order of magnitude. Not to mention the unconcealed scorn so many express towards poor whites.

A middle-class, college educated woman in our society has far more status, far more opportunity than a working class male. Try to point this out and just watch the response.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze View Post
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
CliffFletcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2018, 02:30 PM   #368
GirlySports
NOT breaking news
 
GirlySports's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by icecube View Post
Here's an interesting statistic: For every dollar of wealth that whites have, Asian households have 83 cents but blacks have 6 cents and Hispanics have 7 cents (US Census Bureau 2014)

I agree with you that economic status is the biggest issue. What is the reason for the gap?

Why are black people, indigenous people, other people of colour, so damn poor in comparison? What is the single biggest reason in your estimation?
You have to determine where your starting point is. In a country once dominated entirely by whites, blacks had 0 cents to every white dollar so now 6 cents can be seen a progress. Should it be more? Sure but how is that outcome achieved. Blacks started poor and Hispanics come into the country poor. Asians come into the country rich through immigration so that's not a fair comparison.
__________________
Watching the Oilers defend is like watching fire engines frantically rushing to the wrong fire

GirlySports is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2018, 02:31 PM   #369
CaramonLS
Retired
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by icecube View Post
I pose this question to you then. Why is it that black and indigenous people have such a lower economic status and in such massively disproportionate numbers?
What question are you trying to answer - because they both have different responses. I think the issue is you are trying to conflate the two questions into one.

1) Why is society stratified the way it is right now, seemingly along racial lines and what historical factors have played a role in that?
2) Why is there poor social mobility for certain minority groups in 2018?

If you want an answer to question #2, it is going to look a lot like Cliff's answer, with systemic racism notably absent from the list with a notation that poor social mobility and income inequality is a problem that is affecting every single corner of society right now. Any solution that tries to answer that question shouldn't include racial lines.
CaramonLS is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to CaramonLS For This Useful Post:
Old 04-06-2018, 02:34 PM   #370
Makarov
Franchise Player
 
Makarov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Moscow
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffFletcher View Post

A middle-class, college educated woman in our society has far more status, far more opportunity than a working class male. Try to point this out and just watch the response.
I donít think that is a controversial statement at all.
__________________
"Life of Russian hockey veterans is very hard," said Soviet hockey star Sergei Makarov. "Most of them don't have enough to eat these days. These old players are Russian legends."
Makarov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2018, 02:40 PM   #371
icecube
In the Sin Bin
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: compton
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaramonLS View Post
What question are you trying to answer - because they both have different responses. I think the issue is you are trying to conflate the two questions into one.

1) Why is society stratified the way it is right now, seemingly along racial lines and what historical factors have played a role in that?
2) Why is there poor social mobility for certain minority groups in 2018?

If you want an answer to question #2, it is going to look a lot like Cliff's answer, with systemic racism notably absent from the list with a notation that poor social mobility and income inequality is a problem that is affecting every single corner of society right now. Any solution that tries to answer that question shouldn't include racial lines.
Unfortunately, systemic racism is far from being a relic of the past that some seem to think it or wish it.
icecube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2018, 02:42 PM   #372
Makarov
Franchise Player
 
Makarov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Moscow
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaramonLS View Post
What question are you trying to answer - because they both have different responses. I think the issue is you are trying to conflate the two questions into one.

1) Why is society stratified the way it is right now, seemingly along racial lines and what historical factors have played a role in that?
2) Why is there poor social mobility for certain minority groups in 2018?

If you want an answer to question #2, it is going to look a lot like Cliff's answer, with systemic racism notably absent from the list with a notation that poor social mobility and income inequality is a problem that is affecting every single corner of society right now. Any solution that tries to answer that question shouldn't include racial lines.
But what if certain historically marginalized groups (black males in the US) have worse social mobility rates than non-marginalized groups (as seems to be strongly suggested by the large new study by Stanford & UCLA)? Would you agree that it is important to ask why this is the case?
__________________
"Life of Russian hockey veterans is very hard," said Soviet hockey star Sergei Makarov. "Most of them don't have enough to eat these days. These old players are Russian legends."
Makarov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2018, 02:48 PM   #373
Makarov
Franchise Player
 
Makarov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Moscow
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GirlySports View Post
You have to determine where your starting point is. In a country once dominated entirely by whites, blacks had 0 cents to every white dollar so now 6 cents can be seen a progress. Should it be more? Sure but how is that outcome achieved. Blacks started poor and Hispanics come into the country poor. Asians come into the country rich through immigration so that's not a fair comparison.
That is a fair comment re immigrants. It isnít surprising that, generally speaking, immigrants will be less wealthy than people who were born in state x. However, in Canada and the United States, two of the most marginalized groups (blacks in the US and indigenous persons in Canada) have been there for nearly as long or much longer than whites.

Also, presumably, our goal, idealistic though it may be, is that children born in Canada have the same opportunities for success regardless of how long their families have resided here?
__________________
"Life of Russian hockey veterans is very hard," said Soviet hockey star Sergei Makarov. "Most of them don't have enough to eat these days. These old players are Russian legends."
Makarov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2018, 03:08 PM   #374
rubecube
Franchise Player
 
rubecube's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Victoria
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffFletcher View Post
A middle-class, college educated woman in our society has far more status, far more opportunity than a working class male. Try to point this out and just watch the response.
I guess it depends on your definition of working class. I don't think a woman working in let's say child care or social work has more opportunity and status than an electrician.
rubecube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2018, 03:09 PM   #375
rubecube
Franchise Player
 
rubecube's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Victoria
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaramonLS View Post
What question are you trying to answer - because they both have different responses. I think the issue is you are trying to conflate the two questions into one.

1) Why is society stratified the way it is right now, seemingly along racial lines and what historical factors have played a role in that?
2) Why is there poor social mobility for certain minority groups in 2018?

If you want an answer to question #2, it is going to look a lot like Cliff's answer, with systemic racism notably absent from the list with a notation that poor social mobility and income inequality is a problem that is affecting every single corner of society right now. Any solution that tries to answer that question shouldn't include racial lines.
That's such an evasive answer.
rubecube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2018, 03:10 PM   #376
GirlySports
NOT breaking news
 
GirlySports's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makarov View Post
That is a fair comment re immigrants. It isnít surprising that, generally speaking, immigrants will be less wealthy than people who were born in state x. However, in Canada and the United States, two of the most marginalized groups (blacks in the US and indigenous persons in Canada) have been there for nearly as long or much longer than whites.

Also, presumably, our goal, idealistic though it may be, is that children born in Canada have the same opportunities for success regardless of how long their families have resided here?
I do not think that Blacks in America are marginalized today (this is a point that many disagree). They are getting stronger and stronger in America and while racism certainly still exists, I go back to my equation above of once having 0 cents to now having 6 cents. Change cannot happen over night but over the last 50 years, there have been incredible progress through education, business, arts and entertainment. The fight continues on as 6 cents will one day become 12 cents or 24 cents.

Indigenous people in Canada is an issue I cannot understand in Canada. It is not something I have studied much. I do not know what is holding them back today. Is there more Canada can or should do?

As for the idealistic goal. Being born in Canada is not a good measuring stick. You can be born in Canada poor, you cannot immigrate to Canada poor. So you may have Canadian-born kids of different races in the same grade 9 class learning the same things, taking the same exams, but they may not have the same opportunities going forward.
__________________
Watching the Oilers defend is like watching fire engines frantically rushing to the wrong fire

GirlySports is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2018, 03:13 PM   #377
rubecube
Franchise Player
 
rubecube's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Victoria
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GirlySports View Post
I do not think that Blacks in America are marginalized today (this is a point that many disagree). They are getting stronger and stronger in America and while racism certainly still exists, I go back to my equation above of once having 0 cents to now having 6 cents. Change cannot happen over night but over the last 50 years, there have been incredible progress through education, business, arts and entertainment. The fight continues on as 6 cents will one day become 12 cents or 24 cents.
It's been around 300 years since black people were first brought over as slaves and you consider 6 cents a sign of progress?
rubecube is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to rubecube For This Useful Post:
Old 04-06-2018, 03:18 PM   #378
Makarov
Franchise Player
 
Makarov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Moscow
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GirlySports View Post
I do not think that Blacks in America are marginalized today (this is a point that many disagree). They are getting stronger and stronger in America and while racism certainly still exists, I go back to my equation above of once having 0 cents to now having 6 cents. Change cannot happen over night but over the last 50 years, there have been incredible progress through education, business, arts and entertainment. The fight continues on as 6 cents will one day become 12 cents or 24 cents.
You and I have completely different standards when it comes to “marginalization”.
__________________
"Life of Russian hockey veterans is very hard," said Soviet hockey star Sergei Makarov. "Most of them don't have enough to eat these days. These old players are Russian legends."
Makarov is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Makarov For This Useful Post:
Old 04-06-2018, 03:19 PM   #379
rubecube
Franchise Player
 
rubecube's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Victoria
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makarov View Post
You and I have completely different standards when it comes to ďmarginalizationĒ.
Higher rates of incarceration, higher rates of police brutality, higher rates of poverty and poor health, etc., etc. Yep, no marginalization here. Move along, folks.
rubecube is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to rubecube For This Useful Post:
Old 04-06-2018, 03:28 PM   #380
GirlySports
NOT breaking news
 
GirlySports's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rubecube View Post
It's been around 300 years since black people were first brought over as slaves and you consider 6 cents a sign of progress?
It was probably 0 cents the first 250 of those 300 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makarov View Post
You and I have completely different standards when it comes to “marginalization”.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rubecube View Post
Higher rates of incarceration, higher rates of police brutality, higher rates of poverty and poor health, etc., etc. Yep, no marginalization here. Move along, folks.
Higher rates than what? Again what is your starting point? Blacks couldn't even use the same bathroom 50 years ago. They would just get lynched in the streets for no reason. A black person born before 1960 in a southern state didn't even have a birth certificate or a legal name. You can't flip a switch and change a white-dominated society for centuries overnight. Blacks are more successful and moving up, they have a foundation to build on. I'm not arguing it's not a struggle or there aren't racists out there, the president being the biggest one.
__________________
Watching the Oilers defend is like watching fire engines frantically rushing to the wrong fire

GirlySports is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:09 AM.

Calgary Flames
2023-24




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Calgarypuck 2021