College Hockey Free Agent Article (Fox Tidbits)

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Or have it so that if a player is offered a max level ELC and the player turns it down, they are an RFA for the following year. At least that way, teams would either have to trade for them or give them an offer sheet that can be matched.

... Why should they get RFA rights when they never had a contractual relationship?

Look, how about instead of further having to jackboot people to work for you... you just be an employer that doesn't have to force people to work for them against their will. If you think it's a shame that teams lose out on the draft asset when they refused to sign well... ok... but the solution to that is a conditional compensation pick after their rights expire. No one could reasonably object to that.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Red_Baron

Does this happen in the other 3 major NA sports on a regular basis?

Other than Steve Francis and the Grizzlies I can't think of another example off the top of my head.

Happens in baseball all the time. Does not happen in the other two sports because the only league they draft out of is the NCAA.

[devo22]

Originally Posted by Red_Baron

Does this happen in the other 3 major NA sports on a regular basis?

Other than Steve Francis and the Grizzlies I can't think of another example off the top of my head.

not that I'm aware of. There's a key difference though: NBA and NFL prospects have to actually declare for the draft, and their NCAA eligibility ends the moment they do. In the NHL, prospects just automatically enter the draft when they turn 18.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Parallex

... Why should they get RFA rights when they never had a contractual relationship?

Look, how about instead of further having to jackboot people to work for you... you just be an employer that doesn't have to force people to work for them against their will. If you think it's a shame that teams lose out on the draft asset when they refused to sign well... ok... but the solution to that is a conditional compensation pick after their rights expire. No one could reasonably object to that.

Nobody ever talks about the other loophole, NHL teams do not have to sign CHL players (or any players). If the teams have an automatic right to the player surely that right is reciprocal and players should have an automatic right to the team and a contract with the team.

[Royle9]

Fox=NG
Guys a loser for doing this.
He should have been honest, dont get drafted say you're happy about it and then have no intentions to play.

Players should just be honest during interview period.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by Royle9

Fox=NG
Guys a loser for doing this.

It's the premeditated part that does it for me.

You might as well add an asterisk beside your name at the draft if you're going to be a dick to your drafting team and waste what they're hoping is a valuable pick for their organization that they've invested their scouting resources into.

[Bubba17]

Originally Posted by devo22

not that I'm aware of. There's a key difference though: NBA and NFL prospects have to actually declare for the draft, and their NCAA eligibility ends the moment they do. In the NHL, prospects just automatically enter the draft when they turn 18.

They are not eligible for the draft until after their Junior year (or the year of their classes junior season in case of redshirt season).

[Vinny01]

I thought it was common knowledge that Treliving did everything in his power to convince Fox to sign but once he was told no he moved forward with the Hurricanes deal. The Canes thought since they were in the eastern US they would have a better shot of closing the deal

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by devo22

it's not a loophole. If a CHL player refuses to sign, he re-enters the draft two years after the draft ... NCAA players have to play for four years before the team loses their rights.

It sucks for the team when it happens, but it's just not a loophole that needs to (or even can) be closed. At least they were able to flip him in a deal that turned out pretty damn fine for the Flames.

1. Call it whatever you want but it is a lot easier for a college player to just stay where he is, continue his education, continue playing on the same team with a bigger and bigger role and then get free agency than it is for a junior player to get to the same point. I mean they lieterally don't have to do anything. Just stay where the phuck they are for a little longer. A junior player can't do that.

2. He was a friggin throw in in the Carolina trade. They flipped him for a couple 2nd round picks. Nobody in their right mind would have traded him for a couple 2nd round picks at that point if he was willing to sign. He was tearing college to pieces and ended up winning a Norris while still on his ELC. The Flames got jobbed worse than any team has ever gotten jobbed by an unfortunate ability for college players to threaten to just stay put and wait it out if they get traded to a preferred destination.

[transplant99]

Junior players only disadvantage in that scenario is they cant stay with the team that drafted them for 4 more years. That does not prevent any junior guy from plying his trade overseas though, Matthews did something similar.

If the player is clearly NHL material in either case but refuses to sign, they can, and have been, traded to a destination they will sign with.

Its not a loophole.

[GioforPM]

Even if he out and out said he wasn't intent on signing, in the 3rd round you draft him and hope to either change his mind or trade him. It's not like you passed up a bunch of surefire NHLers to pick him. Only 2 players in the next 6 picked have even played NHL games (38 between them) and no one else in the whole 3rd round has had any impact to speak of.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Junior players only disadvantage in that scenario is they cant stay with the team that drafted them for 4 more years. That does not prevent any junior guy from plying his trade overseas though, Matthews did something similar.

If the player is clearly NHL material in either case but refuses to sign, they can, and have been, traded to a destination they will sign with.

Its not a loophole.

Again, call it whatever you want. It's way easier to stay put than it is to pack up your whole life at 20 and "ply your trade overseas".

A college players ability to stay put is the difference and gives them leverage they shouldn't have. The league should figure out a way to remove that leverage, but they won't because it rarely happens. Just so happens in this case it cost the Flames a #1D man.

[fotze2]

Originally Posted by devo22

it's not a loophole. If a CHL player refuses to sign, he re-enters the draft two years after the draft ... NCAA players have to play for four years before the team loses their rights.

It sucks for the team when it happens, but it's just not a loophole that needs to (or even can) be closed. At least they were able to flip him in a deal that turned out pretty damn fine for the Flames.

Exactly. Sucks for the fan but in the real world you can't just force people to work for you, unless you are Abraham Lincoln.

The draft is the way the league has decided to orderly and fairly distribute young up and coming talent amongst the teams while honoring basic legal rights and decency. Its not for nerd fans to fill their little pools with. Real people with actual rights.

That you can be blackballed for not wanting to go work somewhere on their terms is brutal.

He should just follow the cliche of an idiot 18 yr olds who wants that new truck with their signing bonus. He dared to actually follow the rules to advocate for himself against (sometimes) piece of crap billionaires who are shrewd negotiators.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Again, call it whatever you want. It's way easier to stay put than it is to pack up your whole life at 20 and "ply your trade overseas".

A college players ability to stay put is the difference and gives them leverage they shouldn't have. The league should figure out a way to remove that leverage, but they won't because it rarely happens. Just so happens in this case it cost the Flames a #1D man.

If Fox was in the OHL or CHL he could have just been drafted the Rangers with a low pick after refusing to sign.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by fotze2

Exactly. Sucks for the fan but in the real world you can't just force people to work for you, unless you are Abraham Lincoln.

huh?

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by fotze2

Exactly. Sucks for the fan but in the real world you can't just force people to work for you, unless you are Abraham Lincoln.

The draft is the way the league has decided to orderly and fairly distribute young up and coming talent amongst the teams while honoring basic legal rights and decency. Its not for nerd fans to fill their little pools with. Real people with actual rights.

That you can be blackballed for not wanting to go work somewhere on their terms is brutal.

He should just follow the cliche of an idiot 18 yr olds who wants that new truck with their signing bonus. He dared to actually follow the rules to advocate for himself against (sometimes) piece of crap billionaires who are shrewd negotiators.

He did what he did according to the rules. He wasn't required to sign with the Flames, and at least he was honest with them about that (although more clarity at pre-draft interviews would have been helpful). However, my view of "forcing" someone to work where they don't want to is different. If you're hired by a company for a position in a particular locale, you're not then entitled to say that you want the position, but you demand to be placed in a different locale of your choice. Likewise, the NHL can and should include a clause in the next CBA that states that no drafted player can play in the NHL if they are offered an entry-level deal and reject it. Nobody is entitled to play in the NHL, it's a privilege, and the cost of that privilege is to spend part of your career with the team that drafted and developed you, which is, as you pointed out, one mechanism that the league uses to try to more evenly distribute talent. If you don't want to sign with the team the NHL assigns you to, you can always find an employer of your choice outside of the NHL.

Failure to put into place a mechanism to prevent players from opting out of signing with the teams that drafted them will eventually lead to a league in which the teams who have less favourable locations/local tax structures will not be able to build a competitive team, even through the draft, because players will simply refuse to sign so that they can go where they most want to play, which in most cases will be the same teams, such as those in Florida, California, and New York.

[fotze2]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

huh?

Ahh crap, I was thinking George Washington.

[Jiri Hrdina]

I think one of the differences with the college route is if the kid chooses to stay in school, for 4 years, he emerges with a solid education in place. So there's value in staying. The kid in junior has more risk because he doesn't have the same level of other options available to him. Adam Fox could have waited and come out with a Harvard education + pick the team he wanted. Not too shabby.

I've never viewed it as a loop hole though.

[activeStick]

It is what it is. But I think it's naive for Canadian teams to know this and still not manage this risk properly thinking "we're different!"

The last thing you want is a Fox situation. Norris trophy winner that you drafted, but forced to trade away. Any 1st/2nd rounder I'd consider drafting, "the next best player available" if the best player available is American with plans to play in the US college system. The player can lie, so an interview and asking them is useless.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I think one of the differences with the college route is if the kid chooses to stay in school, for 4 years, he emerges with a solid education in place. So there's value in staying. The kid in junior has more risk because he doesn't have the same level of other options available to him. Adam Fox could have waited and come out with a Harvard education + pick the team he wanted. Not too shabby.

I've never viewed it as a loop hole though.

It's this. Of course not everyone is going to Harvard, nor are they as good as Adfam Fox.

But assuming you never play pro hockey, doesn't college hockey seem like the better route?

Feels like major junior model made more sense when college degrees were rarer.