I am also of the opinion that purchasing fighters in this day in age is not the best choice. unmanned fighters and drones are much more economical and make much more sense against the types of threats and theatres that Canada engages in.
Any conflict in which Canada will absolutely require some kind of super-sonic air superiority fighter will be against 5th generational craft from Russia and China which would probably stomp over JSFs.
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Until I see the entire USAF replaced by unmanned aircraft I'm quite happy to see our government purchase manned fighter aircraft.
Not too mention the entire achilles heel of relying on your entire Air Force to be connected on-line or however they do it. One well placed EMP or disruption of your communications lines and there goes your air force.
Not too mention the entire achilles heel of relying on your entire Air Force to be connected on-line or however they do it. One well placed EMP or disruption of your communications lines and there goes your air force.
Everyone remembers what happened when the Cylon's used a virus to destroy the networked defences of the Twelve Colonies. We sure don't want a repeat of that debacle.
All of that has happened before and all of that can happen again.
Cowperson
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I'm sure they do, but are stealth fighter jets really the way to go? I'm no military expert but I'd say unmanned aircraft (for example) makes more sense as these planes can be used in real situations/current war on terror.
The only way these fighter jets will engage in combat would be against Russian/Chinese jets, and if things go sour that much, we're fataed so badly not even 100 jets will help us.
I think they should be making sure they take both.
Drones and jets.
I don't think we really have to worry about a Russian or Chinese invasion, as the US will help us out, but it is nice to at least do our part in NORAD.
I think we're in the unique position where we can put forth a reasonable budget to constantly upgrade our equipment all the time. The US will buy the big stuff like aircraft carriers and subs.
I think they should be making sure they take both.
Drones and jets.
I don't think we really have to worry about a Russian or Chinese invasion, as the US will help us out, but it is nice to at least do our part in NORAD.
I think we're in the unique position where we can put forth a reasonable budget to constantly upgrade our equipment all the time. The US will buy the big stuff like aircraft carriers and subs.
Everyone remembers what happened when the Cylon's used a virus to destroy the networked defences of the Twelve Colonies. We sure don't want a repeat of that debacle.
All of that has happened before and all of that can happen again.
Cowperson
Yep, cause EMPs and Virus' work just like they do in movies.
The other thing with drones - isn't a lot of technology in the Predator made by Canadian companies already?
I suspect that with drones, you could probably get them manufactured by Canadian companies and benefit our own economy whereas you can't do nearly the same with an advance fighter which you end up buying from the US.
I don't believe that the capability is there today to replace fighters with unmanned or ground piloted drones.
You basically lose your situational awareness. Your instincts are slowed down. Drones do not travel as fast as jets, and don't have the survivability against either long range anti-air, or another craft.
while they're great at loitering at high altitudes and hitting ground targets, they're not really made for or are good for dog fighting.
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The other thing with drones - isn't a lot of technology in the Predator made by Canadian companies already?
I suspect that with drones, you could probably get them manufactured by Canadian companies and benefit our own economy whereas you can't do nearly the same with an advance fighter which you end up buying from the US.
Except that usually the maintenance and upgrading is done in Canada to bring them up to Canadian requirements.
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I don't think we need something as expensive as these stealth fighters. With the types of conflicts we're involved in, I think the money would be better spent on helicopters and a proper airborne division.
I don't believe that the capability is there today to replace fighters with unmanned or ground piloted drones.
You basically lose your situational awareness. Your instincts are slowed down. Drones do not travel as fast as jets, and don't have the survivability against either long range anti-air, or another craft.
while they're great at loitering at high altitudes and hitting ground targets, they're not really made for or are good for dog fighting.
That's my point. Dog-fighting and air to air superiority is not really a vital capability in todays' world. We are not under threat from other fighters or bombers. Canada's theatres of operation don't require dog-fighting either. Drones suit our mission much better. The only reason that Predator drones don't travel as fast or are not as manueverable as jets is that the current ones are not designed for that purpose. Drones can concievably be much faster and agile than jets because there is no limitation in keeping a pilot conscious. Drones are not automated, they are flown by pilots remotely which have full access to audio and visual information. They have as much situational awareness as the technology that is integrated can provide them which is about the same amount of data that a modern helmet mounted HUD and avionics system can. It's not the cold war anymore, that's why the US stopped F-22 production as well.
Except that usually the maintenance and upgrading is done in Canada to bring them up to Canadian requirements.
Maintenance and upkeep is a far cry from millions of dollars spent in the initial purchase that could be spent on our own economy and bolstering our own manufacturing and high tech industries.
That's my point. Dog-fighting and air to air superiority is not really a vital capability in todays' world. We are not under threat from other fighters or bombers. Canada's theatres of operation don't require dog-fighting either. Drones suit our mission much better. The only reason that Predator drones don't travel as fast or are not as manueverable as jets is that the current ones are not designed for that purpose. Drones can concievably be much faster and agile than jets because there is no limitation in keeping a pilot conscious. Drones are not automated, they are flown by pilots remotely which have full access to audio and visual information. They have as much situational awareness as the technology that is integrated can provide them which is about the same amount of data that a modern helmet mounted HUD and avionics system can. It's not the cold war anymore, that's why the US stopped F-22 production as well.
The counter to your argument is that each and every war is different. Todays lesser requirement in terms of dog fighting could be tommorrows requirements for dogfighting, and you don't really want to cast away nerely 100 years of piloting warfare experience.
I know that Pilots are flown remotely, and talking to people who have flown both fighters and flown drones from the ground there is no comparison. Human Pilots in the air in the glass cockpit with entire emmersion in their environment with sound, sight and estimation are superior pilots and tend to get more out of their machines.
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Maintenance and upkeep is a far cry from millions of dollars spent in the initial purchase that could be spent on our own economy and bolstering our own manufacturing and high tech industries.
If we had the expertise and the manufacturing ability sure. But we just don't.
Its just like the loss of our naval ship building capabilities after the frigate program finished. We shut down that capability and lost those skilled workers.
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That's my point. Dog-fighting and air to air superiority is not really a vital capability in todays' world.
That's why we have F-18's now and they're considering F-35's, because they're multi-role aircraft not specifically air-superiority aircraft, but one that can perform those roles plus air-to-ground roles as well.
You could have a drone that could outperform a manned aircraft yes, but they aren't out there to purchase yet.
There's also tradeoffs with remote piloting, on one hand the pilot is remote but to have the response necessary you still need to be line of site to the drone; a satellite link will introduce enough lag to make something like dogfighting difficult. So the pilot is still at risk as the enemy triangulates the control signal and blows up the control centre.
Currently pilots say flying a drone is like piloting while looking through a straw too.. anyone who's driven a car and played a driving game or flown a real airplane and played a flight sim knows that it just isn't the same, though technology could go a long way to mitigating that (virtual reality headsets that move when you look around, wide angle cameras, etc).
Maybe Canada should build it's own drone, a complete remotely piloted replacement for multi-role fighters?
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Last edited by photon; 06-09-2010 at 04:12 PM.
Reason: added quote
Maybe Canada should build it's own drone, a complete remotely piloted replacement for multi-role fighters?
That's what I'm saying. Light drones are far less complicated than advanced fighters. I'm sure Canada's high tech industry is up to it if given the proper incentive and funding. We wouldn't have to rely on the US heavy aviation industry anymore. Heck, we have enough engineering companies that live on military contracts in Calgary alone developing the GPS and guidance systems for things like this.
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Originally Posted by photon
Currently pilots say flying a drone is like piloting while looking through a straw too.. anyone who's driven a car and played a driving game or flown a real airplane and played a flight sim knows that it just isn't the same, though technology could go a long way to mitigating that (virtual reality headsets that move when you look around, wide angle cameras, etc).
Exactly, I don't see why the helmet mounted huds and targetting that pilots have in the latest fighters can't be adapted for even less to pilots on the ground. This is technology that is going to grow and catch up really fast.
I know that Pilots are flown remotely, and talking to people who have flown both fighters and flown drones from the ground there is no comparison. Human Pilots in the air in the glass cockpit with entire emmersion in their environment with sound, sight and estimation are superior pilots and tend to get more out of their machines.
Is anything the pilots see even real anyways? I too think unamanned planes are the way to go, but I'm talking an unmanned multi-role fighter that would be leightweight and maneuvrable by virtue of not having life support weight and g-force limitations. Obviously you can't replace the F-18s with predator drones.
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Originally Posted by Bigtime
Until I see the entire USAF replaced by unmanned aircraft I'm quite happy to see our government purchase manned fighter aircraft.
Not too mention the entire achilles heel of relying on your entire Air Force to be connected on-line or however they do it. One well placed EMP or disruption of your communications lines and there goes your air force.
Modern planes are fly-by-wire and inherently unstable for maneuverability. Wouldn't an EMP majorly eff up the planes anyways?
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Originally Posted by sclitheroe
You can get over it now. The overall design for the Arrow, and every aircraft like it from that generation was quickly outmodded. The need for straight-and-fast interceptors was greatly overblown.
Straight-and-fast? I thought one of the Arrow's traits was maneuverability... wasn't it the first plane to be able to do a 2g turn? Anways, it wasn't just that we lost the Arrow. We lost most of our aerospace industry.
