Is this crap still going on?
Reminds me of the of the ridiculous helicopter procurement (goes back to Mulroney days) and the stupid sub purchase. Just pick the best option and go with it. I haven't kept up with it, are we still flying 50's Sea Kings?
Are those lemon subs still in service?
Sea Kings are fully gone as of 2018
Victoria Class Subs are still in service and likely will be for another 15-20 years. A very interesting example of what would have been a smart purchase that was ruined by slow bureaucracy and dimwitted civilian contractors.
When the announcement of the Victoria Class submarine was announced, I did think it was a pretty smart purchase. The Upholder was a nifty fusion, attempting to combine ultra modern sensors and quieting normally found on a SSN on a SSK. Unfortnately Canada did a awful job when they took possession of them.
You're 15 to 20 year estimate is wildly optimistic. Even DND estimates with the life extension program pegs their end of life at the start of 2030 to mid 2030's. By that point they won't be upgradible, will be woefully outclassed, and will be worn down, which with submarines is dangerous.
Its similar to buying obsolete fighters from Australia.
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Yeah there's just no way we don't end up with a capability gap when it comes to subs, we definitely end up just not having any for a period unless we do something like buy used again. I'd be amazed if it even gets seriously looked at or considered until the CSC construction is almost done, so like 2040?
The more things change the more they stay the same
I would expect that we'll end up with a decade of no subs and lose all our experience with Submarines, and have to make a decision on whether we bring them back of not.
With Canada's coast line and arctic obligations I believe that Submarines are pretty crucial in terms of our naval strategy. Besides providing the obvious anti-sub, anti-ship superior capabilities. They are the best intelligence gathering assets in the Navy. With a huge coast line and a small navy, Submarines are actually the ultimate force multiplier.
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Just read an Ottawa Citizen article that the Canadian Government may use the F-35 procurement bid to leverage against the U.S in other sectors like the EV tariffs that are putting Canadian jobs in the auto sector at risk.
Although through reading the story I can't help but think that this was the U.S plan all along. Screw Canada elsewhere and agree to put thing back to normal if Canada buys the F-35.
Strong arming the bidding process so to speak.
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Just read an Ottawa Citizen article that the Canadian Government may use the F-35 procurement bid to leverage against the U.S in other sectors like the EV tariffs that are putting Canadian jobs in the auto sector at risk.
Although through reading the story I can't help but think that this was the U.S plan all along. Screw Canada elsewhere and agree to put thing back to normal if Canada buys the F-35.
Strong arming the bidding process so to speak.
a 19.5 billion dollar bid isn't going to move the needle on the car industry. Ifs that's Trudeau's strategy of holding that over their heads it will fail.
Lockheed Martin has already delivers 700 F-35's with a expected 156 a year til end of life. So a 65 plane order might sting but in the long run probably in the minds of the US government its pretty easy to stick to their protectionist guns on the auto industry and then punish Canada later if they go with the JAS for political reasons.
I'd prefer to see whichever jet, the F-35 or the JAS-39E win on their merits as a fighter replacement for the next 20 years. Not political BS.
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Does this Ukraine war at all change our outlook on the technology we need?
Is it now only China we would be worried about technology wise which would push for the F35?
Does this Ukraine war at all change our outlook on the technology we need?
Is it now only China we would be worried about technology wise which would push for the F35?
I don't think things have changed much for Canada, other than more information comes in on the operation of each jet the longer we wait. It's between the F-35 and the Gripen-E. Both will fill Canada's needs, and have capabilities that so far exceed what the CF-18s can do, it's all really academic.
The two most steeped in knowledge around these parts, Capt like the F-35 and Baron likes the Gripen. I've always been partial to the Gripen. With what is happening in Ukraine, I kind of like the idea of having a jet with slightly different capability to the American fleet, with the defense of North America being so integrated. If we had F-35s, it feels like a drop of water into a bucket of water, but with the Gripen it might be more of a drop of oil.
That would irritate America politically.
Either way, long long overdue, and anything is a massive improvement. If it's pure integration with NORAD, the F-35 wins, but Saab is adding this from an economic, and long term maintenance perspective.
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Saab, on the other hand, is pitching that Canadian Gripens be assembled in Canada (at IMP Aerospace & Defence in Nova Scotia) and more importantly that all of the intellectual property rights for sustainment and operations become the property of the federal government. That by itself is a significant concession that would give Canada sovereign control over its fighter jet fleet in a manner that has not been seen in decades.
"To have the capabilities in Canada [handled] by Canadians is a way to give Canada sovereign control over the system," said Stefan Nygren, Saab's campaign director in Canada.
In 2015 during the election campaign, Trudeau said that the savings from buying the Saab would be spent on upgrading the navy, and he has done exactly nothing.
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Pretty crazy that we are nearing the 12th birthday of this thread. We could have designed and built a whole new plane in this time!
Our robot overlords will tell us what to do!
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I like both the Gripen and the F-35, both offer different things but both do their jobs very very well. The planes I didn't want have been eliminated from the conversation so I'm happy enough with that.
In a perfect world you'd have both, your advanced frontline fighters for the opening stages of the war, then your cheaper, longer-range workhorses for when the SAM and SHORAD threat has been mitigated. But obviously for numerous reasons that's not realistic for Canada.
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Originally Posted by GGG
Is their a reason for manned fighters anymore at this point? Would a lower cost drone fleet be a better use of funds?
I don't think we'll be there for at least another generation. We'll start to see ai and drones as a 'loyal wingman' before they actually replace jets fully.
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I don't think things have changed much for Canada, other than more information comes in on the operation of each jet the longer we wait. It's between the F-35 and the Gripen-E. Both will fill Canada's needs, and have capabilities that so far exceed what the CF-18s can do, it's all really academic.
The two most steeped in knowledge around these parts, Capt like the F-35 and Baron likes the Gripen. I've always been partial to the Gripen. With what is happening in Ukraine, I kind of like the idea of having a jet with slightly different capability to the American fleet, with the defense of North America being so integrated. If we had F-35s, it feels like a drop of water into a bucket of water, but with the Gripen it might be more of a drop of oil.
That would irritate America politically.
Either way, long long overdue, and anything is a massive improvement. If it's pure integration with NORAD, the F-35 wins, but Saab is adding this from an economic, and long term maintenance perspective.
In 2015 during the election campaign, Trudeau said that the savings from buying the Saab would be spent on upgrading the navy, and he has done exactly nothing.
I'm liking the Gripen as well. I tend to stray away from the next best thing in tech in my self purchases, and frankly I question if it is at all needed anymore. I feel if we get to that point vs russia for example, it would be escalated to nuclear already. Then what's the point.
As well, feels like ordering a F35 would be like ordering the best tires you can buy for a vehicle, but you can only afford 3. Meanwhile, you can get tires that will suit your needs (Gripen) for cheaper, and get the full set and a spare.
I'm liking the Gripen as well. I tend to stray away from the next best thing in tech in my self purchases, and frankly I question if it is at all needed anymore. I feel if we get to that point vs russia for example, it would be escalated to nuclear already. Then what's the point.
As well, feels like ordering a F35 would be like ordering the best tires you can buy for a vehicle, but you can only afford 3. Meanwhile, you can get tires that will suit your needs (Gripen) for cheaper, and get the full set and a spare.
I would totally agree with that but I believe Canada has said they're buying the same amount of either. I would be on board with the Gripen more if it did mean we'd be buying more of them but doesn't look like that will be the case.
Politically, I just don't see how they choose the 39. Government just using this to try and squeeze a better deal out of the US
I would totally agree with that but I believe Canada has said they're buying the same amount of either. I would be on board with the Gripen more if it did mean we'd be buying more of them but doesn't look like that will be the case.
Politically, I just don't see how they choose the 39. Government just using this to try and squeeze a better deal out of the US
Ah right, I forgot it switched to taking the savings and spending elsewhere on the defense budget.
While I don't really agree with the idea, as I think the size of Canada needs more planes, but the other budgets do need an influx of cash as well. So behind on everything, and would still barely make a dent.
The defense budget needs a committed increase much like Germany just did, they were kinda the biggest NATO freeloader and finally snapped out of it. I hope we follow suit
Pretty crazy that we are nearing the 12th birthday of this thread. We could have designed and built a whole new plane in this time!
I feel like if we'd done one of those old Top Gear challenges where you buy a complete Fighter Jet in a box I could have probably assembled a couple by now.
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Originally Posted by btimbit
The defense budget needs a committed increase much like Germany just did, they were kinda the biggest NATO freeloader and finally snapped out of it. I hope we follow suit
Again though, I do find it odd that we single Germany out about this...its not as though they were 'freeloaders' per se, but rather they, nor most of Europe, really wanted a re-militarized Germany.
The have sat back and let most of the rest of Europe carry that load somewhat, but that has mostly been by design.
Realistically, its the fact that no other European nation has really stepped up to that plate that we're focusing again on Germany where the Germans are realizing that they, rather reluctantly, are going to have to step into this role again.
A major point of the EU was that Germany was supposed to largely be the primary Economic Engine of the EU and most of the rest of the European Nations were supposed to be essentially on equal military footing.
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