Valimaki: ‘Stupid’ that he’s sitting

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

These two statements don't agree. Suggest you may need to change one.

Without looking at numbers or charts, I’d guess Zadorov makes life quite miserable for anyone once they get into the slot/by the net. He’s big, physical, and has a long reach.

He isn’t taking any chances offensively, so he’s rarely letting players get behind him.

His skating is beer-league level, and he can get danced, but good luck to you when the only thing between you and Markstrom is 15 feet and Nikita Zadorov.

I’d still play Valimaki.

[cowtown75]

I'm a fan of the potential upside of Valimaki just like I was a fan of the potential upside of Kylington. Maybe Vali needs to have a sit down with Kylington to discuss patience as I think Kylington is a great example for Valimaki to show how hard work and patience will eventually pay off.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

These two statements don't agree. Suggest you may need to change one.

Maybe what Bingo meant to say was

"He is below average defensively relative to top 4 defensemen, and certainly makes gaffs, but he also makes it tough for opposing 4th line forwards to get blue chip chances when he's on the ice."

Good thing we're stopping the other team's Trevor Lewis' from getting dangerous chances on Markstrom's pads!

[Enoch Root]

Zadorov is not just playing against 4th lines and you know it

[GioforPM]

Zadorov is really good at getting a stick on pucks. I think CPers tend to not notice things like pucks getting deflected away, or highly discount them (they also do it when the opposition blocks/deflects a Flames shot - it's always the forward not "burying that chance""). He's also good at angling people away from the net and clearing them when they try to muscle though. He's a terrible passer and can lose the puck in his feet. It's clear Darryl has weighed these and is OK with the latter to get the former.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

These two statements don't agree. Suggest you may need to change one.

Yeah meant offensively.

I'll edit the original. Thanks!

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Maybe what Bingo meant to say was

"He is below average defensively relative to top 4 defensemen, and certainly makes gaffs, but he also makes it tough for opposing 4th line forwards to get blue chip chances when he's on the ice."

Good thing we're stopping the other team's Trevor Lewis' from getting dangerous chances on Markstrom's pads!

Man ... not sure if it's just me, but you sure come off with a tone these days with all the pissy replies.

He's a third pairing defenseman, which means you're generally sheltered in all 32 NHL cities, and not just Calgary. If Valimaki was playing he'd be sheltered too.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by dino7c

I highly doubt this

Let's not pretend he's a hot commodity here. He's a week removed from being considered the Flames 8th best defenceman by many fans, and if you ask me, hasn't really shown anything to convince me otherwise. He's probably made far more mistakes than Valimaki has this year. This is not a player I want to move forward with in terms of an extension, nor is Zadorov a player that should be playing regularly ahead of Valimaki.

However, I imagine that Sutter still feels the player is entitled and not working hard enough in practice, so instead of complaining he should be going harder than ever. When he get's back into the lineup he better make sure he's ready so that he doesn't come back out.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Man ... not sure if it's just me, but you sure come off with a tone these days with all the pissy replies.

Well, I don't see myself taking personal jabs at anyone, whereas others feel no trepidation taking personal jabs at me for having an opinion. So I'm not going to apologize for having a "tone".

He's a third pairing defenseman, which means you're generally sheltered in all 32 NHL cities, and not just Calgary. If Valimaki was playing he'd be sheltered too.

I agree.

I also agree that Zadorov is probably better in his own zone than Valimaki.

My point however, is that even guys like Justin Schultz or Erik Gustaffsson can be and have been positive goal-differential players in a 3rd pair role, so overprioritizing defensive play just doesn't seem logical.

I even don't have a major problem with Zadorov's play as an individual in that role, but when Zadorov-Gudbranson is on the ice for nearly a third of the game, it reflects in the final score. 1-1... nothing happens hockey where if your top line isn't producing, you're probably not going to win.

To date, the best 3rd pairs Treliving has put together, IMO, have been

Schlemko-Diaz (2014-15)
Kylington-Prout (2018-19)
Forbort-Gustafsson (2020-21)

And one might argue that Zadorov is, at worst, better than all but Forbort in that group of six players defensively.

But it doesn't matter... because on a pair with Gudbranson there's a glaring lack of balance. Even on the road they're typically playing against the opponent's lesser players. And when the opponent does try to take advantage, even the defensive-minded Zadorov-Gudbranson pair will get exploited by other team's top players defensively.

Valimaki-Gudbranson were showing a lot of those positive signs that those past 3rd pairs showed... the ability to get the puck out their zone, and make things happen offensively. If Valimaki had a poor game (he did), it didn't cost us precisely because of who that bad game was against. But when Valimaki has a good game, the ceiling for the team is much higher.

Playing not to lose... playing for the loser point... I'm not a fan of this. Valimaki-Gudbranson has potential to be the best 3rd pair we've had in the entire Treliving era - even if Valimaki is not yet as consistent as I'd hope.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Well, I don't see myself taking personal jabs at anyone, whereas others feel no trepidation taking personal jabs at me for having an opinion. So I'm not going to apologize for having a "tone".

I'm not a personal jab fan, so hope you're not talking about me.

If not then why the arrogant, pissy replies to someone not taking jabs?

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I agree.

I also agree that Zadorov is probably better in his own zone than Valimaki.

My point however, is that even guys like Justin Schultz or Erik Gustaffsson can be and have been positive goal-differential players in a 3rd pair role, so overprioritizing defensive play just doesn't seem logical.

I even don't have a major problem with Zadorov's play as an individual in that role, but when Zadorov-Gudbranson is on the ice for nearly a third of the game, it reflects in the final score. 1-1... nothing happens hockey where if your top line isn't producing, you're probably not going to win.

To date, the best 3rd pairs Treliving has put together, IMO, have been

Schlemko-Diaz (2014-15)
Kylington-Prout (2018-19)
Forbort-Gustafsson (2020-21)

And one might argue that Zadorov is, at worst, better than all but Forbort in that group of six players defensively.

But it doesn't matter... because on a pair with Gudbranson there's a glaring lack of balance. Even on the road they're typically playing against the opponent's lesser players. And when the opponent does try to take advantage, even the defensive-minded Zadorov-Gudbranson pair will get exploited by other team's top players defensively.

Valimaki-Gudbranson were showing a lot of those positive signs that those past 3rd pairs showed... the ability to get the puck out their zone, and make things happen offensively. If Valimaki had a poor game (he did), it didn't cost us precisely because of who that bad game was against. But when Valimaki has a good game, the ceiling for the team is much higher.

Playing not to lose... playing for the loser point... I'm not a fan of this. Valimaki-Gudbranson has potential to be the best 3rd pair we've had in the entire Treliving era - even if Valimaki is not yet as consistent as I'd hope.

Not sure I agree.

If the bottom third of your roster is playing to a 0-0 score you're in great shape.

I think every team in the NHL would be happy with that situation. Then your top players win you the game.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Not sure I agree.

If the bottom third of your roster is playing to a 0-0 score you're in great shape.

I think every team in the NHL would be happy with that situation. Then your top players win you the game.

I think only teams whose top players are better than other team's top players would be happy with that situation.

A team like CGY, who would be consistently outmatched by real top players (MacKinnon, Eichel, McDrai, etc) is better off trying to play to a 0-0 score against those top players, and winning through our depth outscoring their depth.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I think only teams whose top players are better than other team's top players would be happy with that situation.

A team like CGY, who would be consistently outmatched by real top players (MacKinnon, Eichel, McDrai, etc) is better off trying to play to a 0-0 score against those top players, and winning through our depth outscoring their depth.

It doesn't work like that. Everyone needs to play to at least a draw, and you take the offense from wherever it comes each night. Yes, the Flames' top offensive guys aren't as elite as some teams,. so they need support from the bottom half, and at times they'll get it.

The offensive driver needs to be the power play though. And in the last few games they haven't had many power plays.

It's as simple as that.

Changing out Zadorov for Valimaki is not moving any needles offensively

[Enoch Root]

this post needs to go here...

Originally Posted by Knut

https://twitter.com/user/status/1461095337821569026

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

It doesn't work like that. Everyone needs to play to at least a draw, and you take the offense from wherever it comes each night. Yes, the Flames' top offensive guys aren't as elite as some teams,. so they need support from the bottom half, and at times they'll get it.

The offensive driver needs to be the power play though. And in the last few games they haven't had many power plays.

It's as simple as that.

Changing out Zadorov for Valimaki is not moving any needles offensively

I think when Valimaki is playing well he easily has the potential to be one of our best offensive Dman.

He has good vision and has made a number of great passes in the offensive zone, specifically last year, where it left me extremely impressed.

I realize at the moment it might not appear he moves the needle offensively but I think once he gets his swagger back he will be able to impact the game offensively and defensively.

I think another part of it, for me, is I don’t like giving all this icetime to a guy that seems to not be in the plans beyond this season. He wouldn’t sign here with term because he wanted too much money, money that his skill set doesn’t dictate he deserves. Gudbranson on the other hand seems like a guy that would re-sign here at a reasonable AAV.

[BigRed]

Originally Posted by SeanCharles

I don’t like giving all this icetime to a guy that seems to not be in the plans beyond this season.

This is fairly key. Zad is clearly a stopgap (please lord let it be so), gone at the end of the season or sooner. Why give so many minutes to a player destined to be gone when your own long term project needs ice time?

Unless Sutter really thinks Valimaki sucks. Which he might?


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[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by BigRed

This is fairly key. Zad is clearly a stopgap (please lord let it be so), gone at the end of the season or sooner. Why give so many minutes to a player destined to be gone when your own long term project needs ice time?

Unless Sutter really thinks Valimaki sucks. Which he might?


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Maybe so they can build up his trade value, and get assets for him at the trade deadline. Another reason could be that this team is going for it this year, and they think he will be a bigger difference maker in tight playoff games.

[GioforPM]

IMO Sutter isn’t a guy that gives big minutes to “showcase” players for trades. I actually don’t know if any coach does that.

[Tkachukwagon]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1465503108868411394

Flames writers (Salim Valji and Ryan Pike) confirmed this afternoon that Valimaki is waiver exempt and can be sent to the AHL. I can only guess, but I am not convinced this was well known (maybe even in the Flames organization). Salim also suggested the Flames could leave Valimaki in California during the upcoming road trip.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Tkachukwagon

https://twitter.com/user/status/1465503108868411394

Flames writers (Salim Valji and Ryan Pike) confirmed this afternoon that Valimaki is waiver exempt and can be sent to the AHL. I can only guess, but I am not convinced this was well known (maybe even in the Flames organization). Salim also suggested the Flames could leave Valimaki in California during the upcoming road trip.

That’s off. CF says different. He’s not getting sent though.

[CroFlames]

If he’s not playing the NHL then play him in the A.