Jacob Markstrom (is better than Cam Talbot)

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Yeah but he was .006 above league average for one

Goalies on crappy teams get stars often. Remember Freddy?

The conversation I thought we are having is about elite goalies

Again on one of the worst defensive teams in the league. Do you think Demko is elite? (I do) because he had a .905 with that same team.

I don't think you can just compare goalie numbers because its harder to play in front of some teams obviously so you posting the numbers again and again doesn't change anything.

NHL execs thought he was the 6th best goalie in the league with those numbers, they agree with me I guess.


Anyway like I said, revisit in a few months

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Again on one of the worst defensive teams in the league. Do you think Demko is elite? (I do) because he had a .905 with that same team.

I don't think you can just compare goalie numbers because its harder to play in front of some teams obviously so you posting the numbers again and again doesn't change anything.

NHL execs thought he was the 6th best goalie in the league with those numbers, they agree with me I guess.


Anyway like I said, revisit in a few months

Yes, truly a good season

I’ve been a big advocate of this case, specifically Kipper under Keenan vs other coaches

But we were talking about .90x under Keenan vs .92x years over 70+ games

I truly see flaws in Markstrom’s fundamentals

He has to actually have an elite season or two to make me view him as such

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Going into last season the entire hockey world rated Markstrom higher...do you honestly think Talbot would have had as good of numbers in Calgary last season? It was a debacle of a year from almost every player. Plus they played the leagues top two scorers (by a mile) 10 times out of 56 games.

Talbot is doing well, Wild also make it a lot easier on him than the Flames have on Markstrom so far...it takes watching one game to figure that out

Canadian Division Goals For Team ranks:

6
7
12
17
19
22 (CGY)
24 (VAN)

Each other division had 2 teams that scored more than TOR and EDM. Each other division also had 2 teams that scored less than VAN, so what we really missed was ~16 games against poor scoring teams.

I doubt the average goals per game between the divisions was much different.

Talbot had to face COL (1st) and VGK (t-3rd)...

[dino7c]

5 of the top 10 scorers in the league last year where in the Canadian division

McDavid had 40 more points than MacKinnon...he is by far the hardest player to face for a goalie in the league


Obviously the Avs as a team are better

Wild also had

Blues
Yotes
Kings
Sharks
Ducks

in their division...I notice these were left out. Makes up for facing the Avs and they didn't play them nor Vegas 10x anyway

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

I doubt the average goals per game between the divisions was much different.

Goals scored in the West Division: 1,311. Average goals per game: 5.85
Goals scored in the Central Division: 1,288. Average goals per game: 5.75
Goals scored in the East Division: 1,334. Average goals per game: 5.96
Goals scored in the North Division: 1,163 (by 7 teams). Average goals per game: 5.93

If you factor out the Flames and their 156 GF (since Markstrom never had to play against his own team), his opponents averaged a hair under 3 GF/GP, or 5.99 goals per game total. It's not a large difference, but enough to make Markstrom look a little worse than if he had played elsewhere in the league.

To find this information, I only had to look at last year's standings instead of making a WAG and hanging it on ‘I doubt’.

That said, what mostly made Markstrom's stats worse was the stretch following his injury. He was excellent to start the year, and excellent again after he was fully recovered. But other posters have gone into that in detail already.

[HarveyWallbanger]

Markstrom likely misses goalie guru Ian Clark just like Sergei Bobrovsky did when he left Clark for Florida as an UFA. Jason LaBarbera's resume as a goalie coach is pretty thin. I don't see any goalie coach success stories he can point to on his resume.

[djsFlames]

Flames give up a handful of really high danger opportunities per game and do not clear rebounds or loose pucks effectively with consistency.

Any goalie playing here is often forced to make theatrical type robbery saves a couple times just to keep enough pucks out for us to deem their performance acceptable.

Its a different breed of animal here with how many brainfarts out team defence has over the course of sixty minutes. You have to do less superman stuff as a goalie on probably 60-70% of other teams. You're just better sheltered on a number of teams.

Vancouver is not one though and Markstrom fared very well there. One consistency in his career is his struggles with Canadian teams. He doesn't have a good career sv% against most of the Canadian clubs. And even with Vancouver I think he was giving up over 3 per game vs the Oilers.

I think he'll fare better against other teams that he has a better track record against.

But I think if all things were equal and we did our part defensively most nights, markstrom would easily be a top 10 or 15 goalie statistically.

Letting guys like McDavid and Draisatl split our D and dance right in almost unchallenged as frequently as they do is just unnacceptable. Sutter has some work to do to get the fundamentals in our end down pat.

[Huntingwhale]

I don't think Markstrom is at the top of the list of things to worry about. Fact is, the team lacks a true #1C, a #1 D, a potent PP QB, overall scoring depth, a suffering D corp, and the top 2 wingers on the team are en-route to free agency with no deal(s) in sight. Compound all those issues together and you get a team that loses in ugly fashion more times then it wins, and an over-reliance on goaltending to bail them out to even give them a chance.

The Flames were spoiled for years by Kipper, who masked almost all the team's issues at various times. Now that Markstrom is being relied upon to pull the same magic act, he's a tier or 2 below Kipper and isn't capable of carrying the team on his own so those holes become glaringly obvious.

Would it be awesome to have a goalie steal game after game? Absolutely. But I don't think Markstrom can do that for an entire season.

[gvitaly]

Markstrom had a bad year last year. I don’t see anyone arguing it. He had 2 pretty good years before it. What we need is more time before jumping to conclusions. Let’s wait until the end of this season.

Here are a few reasons why:
1. Goalies can be inconsistent year to year.
2. Switching teams requires a goalie to make certain adjustments in his game which often results in worse play.
3. The reduction in Markstrom’s play seemed to correlate with his injury.
4. Playing behind a low scoring team like the Flames last year, sometimes results in goalies trying to do too much, which seemed to show in the middle of last season.
5. It was the first game of the season. After a pre-season where Markstrom looked pretty good.

Personally I expect Markstrom to be a top 10 goalie in the league this year.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by dino7c

5 of the top 10 scorers in the league last year where in the Canadian division

McDavid had 40 more points than MacKinnon...he is by far the hardest player to face for a goalie in the league

Ok, but the 30 mins where those guys aren't on the ice are the easiest...6 teams scored more goals.

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Goals scored in the West Division: 1,311. Average goals per game: 5.85
Goals scored in the Central Division: 1,288. Average goals per game: 5.75
Goals scored in the East Division: 1,334. Average goals per game: 5.96
Goals scored in the North Division: 1,163 (by 7 teams). Average goals per game: 5.93

If you factor out the Flames and their 156 GF (since Markstrom never had to play against his own team), his opponents averaged a hair under 3 GF/GP, or 5.99 goals per game total. It's not a large difference, but enough to make Markstrom look a little worse than if he had played elsewhere in the league.

To find this information, I only had to look at last year's standings instead of making a WAG and hanging it on ‘I doubt’.

That said, what mostly made Markstrom's stats worse was the stretch following his injury. He was excellent to start the year, and excellent again after he was fully recovered. But other posters have gone into that in detail already.

What's a WAG?

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Ok, but the 30 mins where those guys aren't on the ice are the easiest...6 teams scored more goals.



What's a WAG?

Flames opponents were higher scoring overall than the Wild opponents...its been statistically proven. Remember the Flames didn't play themselves.

Wild were a better defensive team than the Flames last year (that should be obvious)


You can't just compare numbers like Talbot would have done the exact same here.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Hellebyuck .916
Smith .923
Demko .915
Campbell .921

All played in the Canadian division

[Bonded]

Hopefully, Markstrom bounces back to his form over the first 15 games or so last season. We will need him to steal games. I feel like he could have stopped two of the Oiler goals.

[DeluxeMoustache]

I honestly didn’t think he was that bad on the Oilers’ goals. I had no trouble with his game

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Hellebyuck .916
Smith .923
Demko .915
Campbell .921

All played in the Canadian division

I thought this was about Talbot vs. Markstrom (goalposts)

Smith didn't play against McDavid 10x
Campbell didn't play against Matthews

Flames were a debacle of monumental proportions for much of last season


I have never said Markstrom was great last season either, just that you can't look at Talbot's numbers and say "see he would have done the exact same here"

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Ok, but the 30 mins where those guys aren't on the ice are the easiest...6 teams scored more goals.



What's a WAG?

Wives and Girlfriends

Although in this case I'm going with Wild Ass Guess.

As for Markstrom, he needs to be better than last year.

[SuperMatt18]

It was one game and Markstrom didn't let in any "Bad" goals. You'd love for him to make a big save on Puljujarvi on the 4-2 goal, but it's not a soft goal.

Last season Markstrom was good, outside of the stretch where he was hurt / returned from his injury.

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Speaking on Markstrom specifically.

He was really good to start the season in the first 13 games.

13 GP
SV%: .924 Save Percentage
GSAA: 7.67

Then had a really bad two games around the time he was injured before being shut down.

2 GP
SV%: .767
-6.30 GSAA (Woof those were two really bad games)

Then he was off hurt.

When he returned from injury he was not great, and struggled for the first 14 games or so.

13 GP
SV %: .884
GSAA: -8.82 (Third worst in the NHL in that time)

But now for the last 12 games he's been good again.

12 GP
SV%: .922
GSAA: 4.27

So it really was the stretch (2 games before his injury, 14 games he was injured, 14 games after he returned) where goaltending cost the team and Markstrom was no good. I'm optimistic that most of those midseason struggles for Markstrom were injury related though.

[dino7c]

^^^
Great stats thanks, seems to match what I remember from the start of the season...a few people were saying he wasn't that great to start last year.

I remember the Flames getting owned every game and Markstrom bailing them out.

Last 12 is hopefully sustainable with the combination of him playing better plus the team playing better

[activeStick]

I never thought I'd see arguments for Talbot being a better goalie than Markstrom... what's next? Maybe Bennett being better than Gaudreau or Tkachuk once they re-sign?

[MrMike]

Originally Posted by dino7c

^^^
Great stats thanks, seems to match what I remember from the start of the season...a few people were saying he wasn't that great to start last year.

I remember the Flames getting owned every game and Markstrom bailing them out.

Last 12 is hopefully sustainable with the combination of him playing better plus the team playing better

Yup beginning of last season him and Tanev were the only ones who showed up.

Markstrom was phenomenal at the start, so many stellar performances wasted while the rest of the team didn’t show up.