It's a good point but I don't know if IT IS how was all define it. Jordan seemed to have a flare for hitting the game winning buzzer beater, but how many times has Lebron had to do that? I mean, Curry has shown he hits clutch playoff shots, should that put him in the conversation? Not to me given his other body of work. I think the clutch argument is one major one, but there are several factors IMO.
That block on Iguodala in game 7 was as clutch as any shot.
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Don't forget all but tonight's title was coming from the Eastern Conference. LeBron faced weak competition the majority of the time. The West has almost always been the more competitive conference since Jordan retired. Who knows how many titles he would have won had he played tougher teams on the way to the finals.
He's still 4-6 in the finals. To me Jordan going 6-0 against tough teams almost every single time puts him still at #1. LeBron also had Wade for his two titles in Miami. Wade is every bit the player Pippen was. I'd say pretty much on par with one another.
Congrats to the Lakers on #17 and Bron on #4. I still have MJ ahead of him by a bit simply because MJ still accomplished more than Bron has in a less amount of time. In just 13 seasons with the Bulls MJ won 1 more MVP, 9 more scoring titles, 2 more rings, 2 more finals MVP's and a DPOY award. Bron has MJ beat in longevity but I think prime for prime MJ was more dominant than Bron was by a bit. I think if Bron gets another ring and finals MVP then he can fully claim GOAT but it's neck to neck now.
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Last edited by Hockey_Ninja; 10-11-2020 at 11:51 PM.
Wait, are people forgetting that James had Dwayne Wade on his team in Miami? Along with Chris Bosh? Those were some stacked teams if people are pointing out Pippen and Jordan.
Last edited by keenan87; 10-12-2020 at 09:04 AM.
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That was Wade in decline (other than the first year). Pippen is a better player than Wade at that point. (Or Bosh) But yeah those Heat teams were ofc good but I still think the Bulls has better roster and coach. Anyway that point would hold if James was with the heat his whole career. But the results with Cleveland is something Jordan can’t match. Taking them to the finals five times with a lot of bad teams. Beating the 73-9 Warriors team is likely the best thing either player has ever done. Nothing Jordan did matches that one year. Jordan has never done anything without Pippen and Jackson. James has dragged some truly bad teams to the finals.
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It's tough to ignore that most of LeBron's Cleveland/Miami run was at a time when the Western Conference typically had 10 of the 12 best teams in the league. During Jordan's time the league was as balanced as it ever was. Making all those Finals while in the quite literal JV conference isn't as impressive as it seems. They still count, but when the toughest guys you had to get through to make a Finals were DeMar DeRozan, Paul George and a faded Pistons and Celtics team, it doesn't seem all that impressive. It actually seems like a base requirement to even be remotely considered in the GOAT conversation.
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Anyway that point would hold if James was with the heat his whole career. But the results with Cleveland is something Jordan can’t match. Taking them to the finals five times with a lot of bad teams. Beating the 73-9 Warriors team is likely the best thing either player has ever done. Nothing Jordan did matches that one year. Jordan has never done anything without Pippen and Jackson. James has dragged some truly bad teams to the finals.
... And then lost. And most of those teams were absolutely not "truly bad" teams. The 07 Cavs were the worst, and even they weren't "truly bad", and in that case he got swept without even looking good in defeat. Obviously people will talk about the Mavs finals, and how Jordan would never allow that to happen to him. But even leaving that aside, the 2015-2018 Cavs were good, they just weren't the Warriors.
Anyway, as far as I'm concerned the whole debate was a laughable marketing gimmick to try to get people to watch the "foregone conclusion and no one cared even when the result was still in doubt" NBA playoffs, and will be carried over to next season. If you were around when the Bulls were the Bulls, it wasn't even a question. By the end of the first threepeat when he retired the first time there weren't debates about who was the greatest ever. MJ was just it.
And yes, if you put MJ on those ten teams that Lebron went to the finals with for those seasons, I am convinced he wins more than four of them. That's not the measuring stick I would use to determine GOAT status, but it's still the case.
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Last edited by CorsiHockeyLeague; 10-12-2020 at 10:57 AM.
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Oh come on those 07 Cavs were awful. Saying they weren’t bad pretty much discredits your whole point. The 15 Cavs might have won if both Kyrie and Love hadn’t gotten hurt and then ofc they had no chance when Durant joined the opposition. That 18 team was also pretty awful.
Anyway I disagree with your premise since Jordan didn’t enable his teammates as much. When he went to play baseball that year how did true Bulls do? Oh yeah they won 55 games. When James left Cleveland they went from 60 wins to 20 wins overnight. I do think there is value to Jordan’s unbeaten records in finals, but losing in finals isn’t a black mark compared to losing before the finals which Jordan did many times. Like I said I think they’re fairly even. Jordan’s unbeaten record and all time peak against James lifting up teams and beating better opponents than Jordan ever faced.
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Oh come on those 07 Cavs were awful. Saying they weren’t bad pretty much discredits your whole point. The 15 Cavs might have won if both Kyrie and Love hadn’t gotten hurt and then ofc they had no chance when Durant joined the opposition. That 18 team was also pretty awful.
Anyway I disagree with your premise since Jordan didn’t enable his teammates as much. When he went to play baseball that year how did true Bulls do? Oh yeah they won 55 games. When James left Cleveland they went from 60 wins to 20 wins overnight. I do think there is value to Jordan’s unbeaten records in finals, but losing in finals isn’t a black mark compared to losing before the finals which Jordan did many times. Like I said I think they’re fairly even. Jordan’s unbeaten record and all time peak against James lifting up teams and beating better opponents than Jordan ever faced.
I tend to agree. Where the game has changed significantly in favor of Jordan is the fouling. Jordan had to play through a more physical game to get to the rim. Today's it's more a joke at the fouling in favor of the star players. Lebron farts and it's a foul. In Jordan's day, it wasn't nearly as bad as it is today as he still had to put up with the fear of hard fouls.
Anyway I disagree with your premise since Jordan didn’t enable his teammates as much. When he went to play baseball that year how did true Bulls do? Oh yeah they won 55 games. When James left Cleveland they went from 60 wins to 20 wins overnight.
This is the biggest thing to me.
Every time Lebron leaves a team the team goes from being in the finals, to rebuilding pretty much overnight.
When Jordan left the Bulls they still had 55 wins, which was only 2 fewer than the season before.
Over their career's Jordan played in 13 playoff seasons and had 39.8 win shares in that time - averaging 3.06 per playoff. (.255 per 48 minutes)Lebron has played in 14 playoff seasons and has 55.3 win shares over that time - averaging 3.95 win shares per playoff. (.245 per 48 minutes). Lebron has 3 of the best 5 seasons in Win Shares in the Playoffs ever, and 4 of the top 10 (2, 4, 5, 7); Jordan has 2 of the top 10 (8, 10).
Jordan has a PER of 28.6 in the playoffs. Lebron has a PER of 28.4.
Jordan has a VORP of 24.7 in the playoffs, Lebron a VORP of 33.2
These two players are pretty much #1 and #2 in all of these stats. Honestly I don't think Jordan has outright claim to the GOAT status anymore, at worst these two are 1A & 1B IMO.
Last edited by SuperMatt18; 10-13-2020 at 11:11 AM.
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Really disappointing, seemed like a good guy all season until the bubble started with the anti-vax posts, the hole in his mask, and sharing IG posts that called covid a hoax.
Really disappointing, seemed like a good guy all season until the bubble started with the anti-vax posts, the hole in his mask, and sharing IG posts that called covid a hoax.
Yeah, a guy who seems like a good player, but who knows how his mental state is to buy into silly theories. As a fan I hope this was all a misunderstanding, though I doubt it considering her eye was substantially hurt. Ahh man.
Yeah, Davis is a total disappointment, and if these allegations are true, I hope the Raptors move him or release him quickly.
Yeah, the bar in the city has been set that if a player committed abuse, he's going to be dealt. I think the Jays set that standard when they dumped Osuna after he allegedly brutally beat his girlfriend. I personally think Davis is a potential star in the league, so if they do have that unofficially in the cards for him, they better be getting a good return.
Brandon Weems (the Cavaliers director of scouting) sister Ericka was found shot dead in her Akron home. LeBron James and the Weems' family grew up together in Akron.
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Yeah, pretty odd, but not surprising. Harden and him have high egos and really are modern day ball hoggers (moreso Harden). Can't have two on one team. I'd love for the Raps to go for him, but with the team first identity I can't see him fitting in or wanting to come to a different country.
On another notes, VanVleet said he's looking to cash in, which means he's done in Toronto. I'd personally like the Raps to develop him over keeping Lowry on the tail end of his career, but I strongly think Lowry has become untouchable with his ring and his shift to being a team player under Masai after making amends post DeRozan. I still have no clue what the team does aside from that, because there are a ton of directions they can go this off-season. I think the culture has been set that regardless of who they bring in, they'll be looking for chemistry and openness to creative coaching to get it done, over the traditional star-player takes it always in crunch time. I think that narrows the list down considerably when looking at big names.
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