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Old 04-07-2018, 08:36 PM   #441
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Interesting blog post with many links, including links to the rcap document I posted earlier.

If relocation is the answer, what is the question?

http://apihtawikosisan.com/2016/04/i...-the-question/

The main thesis here: the problem is colonialism. Not isolation.

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Right now, many people are arguing that the only alternative to the colonially created reserve system is integration into urban centres where there is more economic possibility.
This overlooks that Indigenous peoples are already massively urbanized, with over half living in a town or city. While this does not compare to the 80% of non-Indigenous Canadians that are urbanized, it does at least give us a large sample size to examine.
If over 50% of Indigenous peoples are already “relocated” (some of whom have been urbanized for generations), then surely over 50% of Indigenous peoples are experiencing the positive outcomes that relocation is supposed to provide?
Nope, hate to burst your bubble. While there are some slight improvements in terms of educational attainment, job opportunities and earnings, urbanization (relocation) is hardly the panacea it is being presented as.
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Old 04-07-2018, 08:52 PM   #442
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I don't think you or the person who wrote that article understands what colonialism actually means.

The largest issue with that article, among many, is that it offers no solutions, just name calling and historical grievances. It's terrible that FN people were displaced in the Martimes for loyalists in the 1780s but that doesn't help FN people forge a path forward now.

Actually the solution it called for was more funding for FN people but they are already heavily heavily subsidized by the governments and it's not improving outcomes for them.
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Old 04-07-2018, 08:53 PM   #443
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"Participating" means joining the rest of us in cities that are consistently rated the most livable in the world and leaving reservations where the drug abuse, teen pregnancy, suicide, single motherhood, crime, illiteracy, and alcoholism rates are all sky high.
Close, but:

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Namely, a definition of what that IS, without resorting to laziness that is no more than naming the “First Nations things” they should stop doing.

How do you define Canadian culture? And how do you separate those contributing to your version of it, and those who aren’t?
Again, “participating in Canadian culture” is a pretty big idea, so what does it mean? Are you saying that just “not living on a reserve” is participating in Canadian culture? That’s it? Because that’s weak, it’s just suggesting that Canadian culture is city living, and by that measure there are a significant amount of non-status Canadians living outside Canadian culture, probably a higher number than there are FN people.

On top of that, most FN people don’t live on a reserve, so if we’re going to suggest First Nation people should participate in Canadian culture, we should make sure our definition of “participation” isn’t something that the vast majority of FN people are already doing.
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Old 04-07-2018, 09:11 PM   #444
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Originally Posted by DiracSpike View Post
I don't think you or the person who wrote that article understands what colonialism actually means.

The largest issue with that article, among many, is that it offers no solutions, just name calling and historical grievances. It's terrible that FN people were displaced in the Martimes for loyalists in the 1780s but that doesn't help FN people forge a path forward now.

Actually the solution it called for was more funding for FN people but they are already heavily heavily subsidized by the governments and it's not improving outcomes for them.
Wikipedia has it nailed down pretty well. Canada in a nutshell.


Settler colonialism#is a form of#colonialism#which seeks to replace the original population of the colonized territory with a new society of settlers. As with all forms of colonialism, it is based on exogenous domination, typically organized or supported by an#imperial authority.[1]#Settler colonialism is enacted by a variety of means ranging from violent#depopulation#of the previous inhabitants, to more subtle, legal means such as#assimilation#or recognition of indigenous identity within a colonial framework.#Unlike other forms of colonialism, the imperial power does not always represent the same nationality as the settlers. However, the colonizing authority generally views the settlers as#racially superior#to the previous inhabitants, which may give settlers' social movements and political demands greater legitimacy than those of colonized peoples in the eyes of the#home#government.

The land is the key resource in settler colonies, whereas#natural#and#human resources#are the main motivation behind other forms of colonialism. Normal colonialism typically ends eventually, whereas settler colonialism lasts indefinitely, except in the rare event of complete evacuation or settler#decolonization.[2]
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Old 04-07-2018, 09:22 PM   #445
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I posted three links earlier that contain many proposed solutions.

Maybe you'll like this one better?


“So what are the solutions!?”
http://apihtawikosisan.com/2016/04/s...the-solutions/

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When Canadians rightfully demand to know why conditions faced by Indigenous peoples in this country remain so dismal, folks often rush to the conclusion that everything has been tried and nothing has worked.

We have the information we need to act, we have the research that backs it up, we even have specific dollar amounts attached to many of these solutions. What we continue to#not have#is the political will to implement solutions.

Last edited by icecube; 04-07-2018 at 09:25 PM.
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Old 04-07-2018, 09:44 PM   #446
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Originally Posted by icecube View Post
Wikipedia has it nailed down pretty well. Canada in a nutshell.


Settler colonialism#is a form of#colonialism#which seeks to replace the original population of the colonized territory with a new society of settlers. As with all forms of colonialism, it is based on exogenous domination, typically organized or supported by an#imperial authority.[1]#Settler colonialism is enacted by a variety of means ranging from violent#depopulation#of the previous inhabitants, to more subtle, legal means such as#assimilation#or recognition of indigenous identity within a colonial framework.#Unlike other forms of colonialism, the imperial power does not always represent the same nationality as the settlers. However, the colonizing authority generally views the settlers as#racially superior#to the previous inhabitants, which may give settlers' social movements and political demands greater legitimacy than those of colonized peoples in the eyes of the#home#government.

The land is the key resource in settler colonies, whereas#natural#and#human resources#are the main motivation behind other forms of colonialism. Normal colonialism typically ends eventually, whereas settler colonialism lasts indefinitely, except in the rare event of complete evacuation or settler#decolonization.[2]
So colonialism is static? The fact that people were displaced 200 years ago means that we are forever living in a colonial society? Because beyond that none of that definition is relevant today.

FN people have full autonomy of their lands, can block almost any develomwnt project they feel like, and in the process of resource extraction they reap tremendous benefits, both in taking in much more government benefits than they pay in taxes and in employment rights to work on projects.

In my line of work we are legally bound to preferentially hire FN crews and each band needs to be consulted on every project we carry out and can veto whatever they feel. There's currently a 6 month backlog of projects in FNC right now. All of that is their legal right I'm just saying, a colonized victimized population doesn't enjoy any of those benefits. It's a nice buzzword for you and others to use to make it seem like whitey is holding people down and Canada is a racist place (except for you of course) but it doesn't reflect reality at all.
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Old 04-07-2018, 10:38 PM   #447
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Duty to consult isn't proof that settler colonialism doesn't exist.

Canada didn't go that route out of the kindness of its heart. It was forced to after losing decisions in the supreme court of Canada.


Aboriginal rights, title and the duty to consult - a primer

https://www.ictinc.ca/blog/aborigina...nsult-a-primer

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“The doctrine of Aboriginal rights exists… because of one simple fact: when Europeans arrived in North America, Aboriginal peoples were already here, living in communities on the land, and participating in distinctive cultures, as they had done for centuries. #It is this fact, and this fact above all others, which separates Aboriginal peoples from all other minority groups in Canadian society and which mandates their special legal status.”#– Chief Justice Lamer in#R. v.#Van der Peet,#para 30.

Last edited by icecube; 04-07-2018 at 10:40 PM.
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Old 04-08-2018, 02:33 AM   #448
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As bad as it sounds most Canadians don’t care about First Nations. And there is nothing that will change that thought until the system is changed. Why should the average person care? I don’t see a reason yet why anyone should.

In before ice cube calls me a racist.

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Old 04-08-2018, 08:06 AM   #449
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So colonialism is static? The fact that people were displaced 200 years ago means that we are forever living in a colonial society? Because beyond that none of that definition is relevant today.

FN people have full autonomy of their lands, can block almost any develomwnt project they feel like, and in the process of resource extraction they reap tremendous benefits, both in taking in much more government benefits than they pay in taxes and in employment rights to work on projects.

In my line of work we are legally bound to preferentially hire FN crews and each band needs to be consulted on every project we carry out and can veto whatever they feel. There's currently a 6 month backlog of projects in FNC right now. All of that is their legal right I'm just saying, a colonized victimized population doesn't enjoy any of those benefits. It's a nice buzzword for you and others to use to make it seem like whitey is holding people down and Canada is a racist place (except for you of course) but it doesn't reflect reality at all.
They don't have any autonomy over their lands. They can't sell their land. The federal government through the Indian Act must approve all development and leasing of the land.

The entire FNC process is the provincial government telling the First Nations exactly how much authority they can exert on their and crown land.
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Old 04-08-2018, 09:58 AM   #450
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I think icecube thinks almost everybody is a racist, especially if we don’t think we’re one.
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Old 04-08-2018, 10:00 AM   #451
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As bad as it sounds most Canadians don’t care about First Nations. And there is nothing that will change that thought until the system is changed. Why should the average person care? I don’t see a reason yet why anyone should.
Why should anyone care about anyone else? Why do people care about their neighbors? Anyone who is struggling? Why do people care about the Humboldt Broncos?

The answer to any one of those is the answer to your question. People care about people, even when their outcomes don’t impact them personally, because that’s part of human nature.

If you don’t understand why humans care about other humans, you’re probably a sociopath.
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Old 04-08-2018, 10:06 AM   #452
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I think icecube thinks almost everybody is a racist, especially if we don’t think we’re one.
I think icecube accurately points out thoughts and statements that are racist in nature, and while he may accuse the person in question of being racist for using it, what shouldn’t be lost in this is how easily people rely on racism when talking about First Nationa people.

The fact is, racism against First Nations people is still very present and accepted today. You can try and dismiss icecube’s accusations as “oh, they just think everybody is a racist!” but if you do that without recognising the amount of language and rhetoric born from historical racism in the last while of this conversation, then I think you need to re-evaluate.
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Old 04-08-2018, 10:30 AM   #453
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If you don’t understand why humans care about other humans, you’re probably a sociopath.
One of the more stranger answers I've ever read to the does atruism exist debate.
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Old 04-08-2018, 10:31 AM   #454
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Is it simply a matter of repealing the Indian Act or is funding tied to it as well?
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Old 04-08-2018, 10:41 AM   #455
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Is it simply a matter of repealing the Indian Act or is funding tied to it as well?
The problem is what do you replace the Indian Act with. You need a document to replace that that specifies how the federal government will fulfill its treaty obligations.

There is also significant disagreement within First Nations Bands on what should be done. There is the anti development all land is sacred and cannot be owned and the pro development group. The groups that hold the spiritual connection paramount oppose changes that would allow the sale/ownership of land.

There is also good historical reason to believe that any move to allow bands to sell their land is really just another plot by the whtieman to steel it as has been done since the treaties were signed. And in some ways that is exactly what would happen as businesses would exploit corruption within bands to obtain needed land. So while the well run bands would be better off under such an arrangement the poorly run ones would be exploited.

I actually think Harper was on the right track requiring auditing of band financials in exchange for funding. The goal being to establish good independant governance on reserves while not dictating how money is spent.
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Old 04-08-2018, 11:04 AM   #456
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One of the more stranger answers I've ever read to the does atruism exist debate.
Haha, well that’s a different debate, but whether you adhere to altruism or egoism, there are reasons on both sides for why one should care about others (because in this case, improvement of the First Nations situation then directly improves one’s own).

Lacking the ability to see any reason to care, even from the perspective of egoism, is very very odd. More in line with sociopathy or a complete and total misunderstanding of economics.
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Old 04-08-2018, 11:26 AM   #457
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The fact is, racism against First Nations people is still very present and accepted today. You can try and dismiss icecube’s accusations as “oh, they just think everybody is a racist!” but if you do that without recognising the amount of language and rhetoric born from historical racism in the last while of this conversation, then I think you need to re-evaluate.
Let's play the Not Mutually Exclusive Game:

* Racism is still a thing in Canadian society today.

* Racism today plays ony a small role in the social ills that Natives suffer disproportionately from.

In other words, if racism were to vanish tomorrow, there would still be a large gap between the attainment of Canada's Natives the non-Native population. So while we shouldn't ignore racism, we shouldn't let it deflect us from those other issues. Such as:

* Toxic home environments for children

* Bad outcomes for children raised in single-parent households

* The lack of economic opportunity in isolated rural communities

* The corruption and inefficiency of the reserve system

* The culture of dependency fostered by reliance on social assistance

I'm confident that if you looked at the social outcomes of rural Newfoundlanders who stay in small isolated towns, don't finish high school, are raised by single parents, and who rely on EI for most of their income, they would be pretty bad. Much closer to the outcomes of Canadian Natives than to Canadian non-Natives.
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Old 04-08-2018, 11:46 AM   #458
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I think icecube thinks almost everybody is a racist, especially if we don’t think we’re one.
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Old 04-08-2018, 11:52 AM   #459
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“The Canadian Psychologist Beating American Pundits at Their Own Game”

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What sets him apart is his ability to marry easy-to-digest platitudes with a passionately articulated and deeply conservative worldview, one that goes down just as smoothly for his overwhelmingly white, male fan base. Peterson speaks to the “lost boys” who populate the internet forums and finished basements of America with authority and candor, a comforting-yet-challenging paternal voice to a demographic that’s been the subject of as much scrutiny in recent months as Peterson himself.
Politico with a decent read on this Peterson fellow so many seem enamoured with.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...wn-game-217773
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Old 04-08-2018, 12:05 PM   #460
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In other words, if racism were to vanish tomorrow, there would still be a large gap between the attainment of Canada's Natives the non-Native population. So while we shouldn't ignore racism, we shouldn't let it deflect us from those other issues.
Did you just come to this conclusion?

A. If you could magically make racism disappear overnight, you could probably make the other things disappear (I’m not well-versed in what sort of magic you’re using, but let’s say it’s powerful enough). If you could only make racism disappear, then yeah, obviously those other things would still exist, but how the “average person” views those things would change, and therefore, so too would the actions taken and the passion towards fixing them.

B. I don’t know many (any) people who think that if Canadians were just not racist towards First Nations people, everything would be fixed. If you know some of those people, then your post is a great one for them to read. For the majority that realise the complexity of the issue, they realise everything you’re saying, that you can’t just address one part of it. But they also realise that racism is maybe the most important thing to address.

The reason for this is simple: you can address broken homes, low education, the reserve system, etc, but if you do that while still holding on to the view that the population you’re addressing is less-than, or hold on to prejudices that lead you to painting the whole population with one brush, or viewing all of them as “the other” that lives outside Canadian culture, then your solutions are never going to be sufficient.

Repairing the situations that some First Nations people find themselves in without addressing racism is stupid and short sighted. Sure, you can make racism vanish and the problems will still exist, but you’ll be much better equipped to solve those problems.

If an obese person decides to start eating healthy, they aren’t going to fix themselves tomorrow. There’s still a lot of work, but they’ve fixed part of what forms the foundation of the problem. They can build off it. Sure, they could just get liposuction, but if they haven’t fixed the foundation, they’ll be right back where they were.

The problem is that people view something like racism as a side issue that kind of doesn’t matter, not a foundational issue that needs to be changed. Until THAT changes, the problem is going to persist. As humans, everything we do is based on thought, on our interpretation of the world, and we act accordingly. If you attempt to create positive outcomes and actions without changing negative thought and interpretations, you’re going to lose.
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