2018/2019 Trade Speculation and Rumors

[theslymonkey]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I see it much differently
I think overall the Flames are a better team with Hanifin and Lindholm than Dougie and Ferland
Ryan is not a fourth line centre. He wasn’t signed just to be that.
And Austin could be a significant upgrade
I think the Flames have a much better two way forward group with way more options
They haven’t just swapped out parts. They’ve been arguably the most active and aggressive team and have improved

I just don't see it through those glasses, rose or otherwise.

Hamilton over Hanifin. But it's close.

Lindholm over Ferland at 1RW. But it's close.

3M line is the same.

Czarnik is unknown, but probably a little better.

Ryan or Janko can play 3/4C however, but the upgrade from Stajan is considerate. But that's a pretty minor place to upgrade.

The team is different and could very well play better, but on paper I just don't see this massive improvement that will be all that noticable.

By signing Neal or something like him would then make a huge difference. Then you have Lindholm at 2C, Backlund at 3C, Ryan at 4C and Janko moving to wing and bumping Brouwer out. That's the massive improvement that a big move/signing would make.

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[Poe969]

They made changes to the bottom 6, and they needed to but the top 6 is still lacking. The Flames need to add a legit scorer. Maroon would be a good complimentary player like Ferland was but they need a guy like Neal, Stone, Kane, JVR, to put pucks in the net. This team desperately needs a real top 6 player.

As for giving Neal 6 years, if he'd sign with the Flames I would do it. It may be a bad contract in 4-5 years but worry about it then, this team needs help now.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Maybe Tkachuk is the upgrade on the top line
The changes made allow for things like that to happen
For all the focus on Neal dude has sub 45 points the last two years
How much do you want to overpay for that?

[GoJetsGo]

My worry isn't about Neal declining in four years. It's the possibility of him taking a Lucic nose-dive as early as a year from now. Just don't see any way throwing money at him over what will likely take him into his mid to late 30s is a good idea.

[theslymonkey]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Maybe Tkachuk is the upgrade on the top line
The changes made allow for things like that to happen
For all the focus on Neal dude has sub 45 points the last two years
How much do you want to overpay for that?

It's not Neal, but that type of big type scorer. Most of their lives have been swaps. Adding a big dog up top moves better players down to each line. Neal is just the easy example because he's still UFA. I think most would have taken other options, but those players are now gone.

Don't get me wrong, this team has potential to do more, but the new parts are just that....new.

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[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by theslymonkey

I'm glad you like this, and it's not terrible. But this is very close to last year.

The Dougie/Ferly for Hanifin/Lindholm deal is a wash or at least very close to.

The Czarnik upgrade for Jagr/Hath/Lazar is minor depending on how he plays there.

Ryan is better than Stajan, but improving your 4C is really not going to change that much.

Adding Neal/JVR or something on the top line is where you change the rest of the team for the better by the trickle down effect. Swapping out parts isn't going to make a big impact.

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I don't think we swapped parts today. I think the effect will be significant and not because I prefer bargain bin hunting on July 1st (I have always said - go big, go small, and stay the **** away from the middle)

Ryan and Czarnik and Lindholm are RHS. That is a bigger add to our power play than guys like JVR and Neal who bring a lot of the things our top PP forwards - Monahan, Gaudreau, Tkachuk, and Backlund - already bring. There are only a few PP minutes available so you have to make the most out of them. Big names can see their numbers plummet without the PP time that made them big names.

Additionally, You frame it as if we got 82 games from either Jagr and Versteeg. We didn't. Versteeg played 24 games probably on already bad hips (he looked great lin preseason then suddenly fell off the map) and Jagr skipped training camp and gave us 22 with a bad groin.

Finally you are underselling the expectations for Czarnik. This isn't a 4th line plug like Hathaway, it's a guy the organization is going to put in position to succeed as an offensive player with PP time. They're going to do what they can to set the player up for a breakout season. Maybe he won't explode for 30 goals like Marchessault did a couple years ago but I think it is safe to say the team thinks they added skill to their lineup. Do NOT be surprised if he sees time opposite Gaudreau right off the bat. The team isn't treating him like a fringe NHLer, they're treating him like a star buried on a very good team. It's a gamble, but successful gambles are exactly what produce success. Measures moves get measured results.

Finally Ryan, I'm going to preface this by saying I don't see him as a 4C. I visualize him as a 3RW who will take some draws. What does this mean? Suddenly Bennett and/or Jankowski have a productive, steady veteran on their line who can make them better. Last year, when the line began to slump it was clear why - they had, as a line, started to dump and chase ad nauseum. Not because Bennett or Janko lacked the skill to carry, but because as a line their confidence fell off knowing Hathaway's weaknesses carrying the puck. It took one player to anchor two others down. The line was amazing with Jagr for a while because all three guys had chemistry carrying the puck. That little wrinkle is something Derek Ryan, a guy who has been the MVP of the third best pro hockey league in the world, brings to the table. If Bennett and Jankowski play like the guys we saw in December, well we've added two absoltely dangerous pieces. Heck, many would argue Bennett was THE best player on the team in December. More consistency out of him is worth more than a Neal/JVR both of whom are career passengers.

JVR, Neal, even Perron... good players but they are not the Hossa or Tavares type big fish nor did they even solve a serious problem on the PP (Perron might have, but I had other reservations about him). The next best player on the market after Tavares was Ilya Kovalchuk and perhaps he had zero interest in small market Canada.

The truth is, if Blake Wheeler were on the table, you sell the farm to make room for him. James Neal and JVR? That's more in that Lucic group of potential backfires.

Ultimately you can't look at it as just "we need a 60pt forward". You have to look at it as "what will get us 15 more goals from our 3rd line, 15-20 more goals from our power play, and 10 more goals from our 4th line?". a 60pt player might only mean 5 more goals on the PP and 5 more goals from the top line if the roster is still flawed.

[Willi Plett]

Originally Posted by Poe969

They made changes to the bottom 6, and they needed to but the top 6 is still lacking. The Flames need to add a legit scorer. Maroon would be a good complimentary player like Ferland was but they need a guy like Neal, Stone, Kane, JVR, to put pucks in the net. This team desperately needs a real top 6 player.

As for giving Neal 6 years, if he'd sign with the Flames I would do it. It may be a bad contract in 4-5 years but worry about it then, this team needs help now.

Is 6 the longest we could offer because I’d be happy to offer 7 if the cap hit fits for 2-3 years. After that if it’s not a fit there are trades, buyouts, and likely expansion draft to move the contract off. As long as we can resign Tkachuk and get to lockout it won’t matter. In 5 years Gaudreau is up and in 6 Monahan. The time is now.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by theslymonkey

It's not Neal, but that type of big type scorer. Most of their lives have been swaps. Adding a big dog up top moves better players down to each line. Neal is just the easy example because he's still UFA. I think most would have taken other options, but those players are now gone.

Don't get me wrong, this team has potential to do more, but the new parts are just that....new.

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If you think the new parts are just new frankly you haven’t been paying attention. They address specific needs

[Poe969]

Yes, the new guys do address some needs but not all of them. This team just added bottom 6 depth but needs top 6 depth. Maybe o e of them steps up or a kid like Foo comes in but as of now, I the no this team is still missing something

[theslymonkey]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

If you think the new parts are just new frankly you haven’t been paying attention. They address specific needs

Quite the contrary. I have been paying very close attention.

I get the RHS is important. And adding the three new guys is good. But they lost two players in Hamilton and Ferland in the process. So the upgrade is different and may have purpose, it just came at a significant cost.

Losing Dougie is big. At least right away. I think it's a wash for Hanifin long term, but initially, its a loss. And this is coming from a guy who never liked Dougie. He's a game breaker and will be surely missed.

Lindholm over Ferland, and I really like Ferly. Lindholm being a RHS with higher hockey sense is great. But Ferlys shot is of decent value.

I get the strategic moves, and I like what they have done. But I just don't see it as this big upgrade.

I actually would like to see Monahan, Lindholm, Backlund down the middle. I just think it makes a big mess of off wings and wasting Ryan at 4C.

I'm not criticizing to whine, I guess I am just hesitant to applaud the moves until I see them in action.

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[Bunk]

Originally Posted by Poe969

Yes, the new guys do address some needs but not all of them. This team just added bottom 6 depth but needs top 6 depth. Maybe o e of them steps up or a kid like Foo comes in but as of now, I the no this team is still missing something

Counterpoint: last season, the top 6 was the least of our problems, whereas the bottom six was atrocious. And, arguably, Lindholm is better overall than Ferland. So tweaked what worked, and overhauled what wasn't. The salary structure seems to lend itself to a more balanced forward group as opposed to a top heavy one. Both models are out there - Pittsburgh vs Vegas for instance. Since our top line is relatively affordable, we can spread some money (and skill) across all four lines.


Upgrading Frolik, however, would not be a bad thing.

[RedHawk12]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I don't think we swapped parts today. I think the effect will be significant and not because I prefer bargain bin hunting on July 1st (I have always said - go big, go small, and stay the **** away from the middle)

Ryan and Czarnik and Lindholm are RHS. That is a bigger add to our power play than guys like JVR and Neal who bring a lot of the things our top PP forwards - Monahan, Gaudreau, Tkachuk, and Backlund - already bring. There are only a few PP minutes available so you have to make the most out of them. Big names can see their numbers plummet without the PP time that made them big names.

Additionally, You frame it as if we got 82 games from either Jagr and Versteeg. We didn't. Versteeg played 24 games probably on already bad hips (he looked great lin preseason then suddenly fell off the map) and Jagr skipped training camp and gave us 22 with a bad groin.

Finally you are underselling the expectations for Czarnik. This isn't a 4th line plug like Hathaway, it's a guy the organization is going to put in position to succeed as an offensive player with PP time. They're going to do what they can to set the player up for a breakout season. Maybe he won't explode for 30 goals like Marchessault did a couple years ago but I think it is safe to say the team thinks they added skill to their lineup. Do NOT be surprised if he sees time opposite Gaudreau right off the bat. The team isn't treating him like a fringe NHLer, they're treating him like a star buried on a very good team. It's a gamble, but successful gambles are exactly what produce success. Measures moves get measured results.

Finally Ryan, I'm going to preface this by saying I don't see him as a 4C. I visualize him as a 3RW who will take some draws. What does this mean? Suddenly Bennett and/or Jankowski have a productive, steady veteran on their line who can make them better. Last year, when the line began to slump it was clear why - they had, as a line, started to dump and chase ad nauseum. Not because Bennett or Janko lacked the skill to carry, but because as a line their confidence fell off knowing Hathaway's weaknesses carrying the puck. It took one player to anchor two others down. The line was amazing with Jagr for a while because all three guys had chemistry carrying the puck. That little wrinkle is something Derek Ryan, a guy who has been the MVP of the third best pro hockey league in the world, brings to the table. If Bennett and Jankowski play like the guys we saw in December, well we've added two absoltely dangerous pieces. Heck, many would argue Bennett was THE best player on the team in December. More consistency out of him is worth more than a Neal/JVR both of whom are career passengers.

JVR, Neal, even Perron... good players but they are not the Hossa or Tavares type big fish nor did they even solve a serious problem on the PP (Perron might have, but I had other reservations about him). The next best player on the market after Tavares was Ilya Kovalchuk and perhaps he had zero interest in small market Canada.

The truth is, if Blake Wheeler were on the table, you sell the farm to make room for him. James Neal and JVR? That's more in that Lucic group of potential backfires.

Ultimately you can't look at it as just "we need a 60pt forward". You have to look at it as "what will get us 15 more goals from our 3rd line, 15-20 more goals from our power play, and 10 more goals from our 4th line?". a 60pt player might only mean 5 more goals on the PP and 5 more goals from the top line if the roster is still flawed.

I agree with this 100%. I think adding 3 RHS in Lindholm, Ryan and Czarnik is huge. It completely changes our faceoff plays and our look on the PP.

[Otto-matic]

I know Commie is usually full of BS

but

https://twitter.com/user/status/1013650719268720640

[oldschoolcalgary]

^ interesting... it'd be a heck of a chance to take on that length of term...

[sureLoss]

When Commodore does his Insiderrr schtick he is just making things up. He has admitted this many times.

[JurassicTunga12]

haha.


Didn't he get 1 or 2 right one time? Just as good as Eklund, probably.

[The Wolfman]

I hate to say this but we might be making history tonight

Could it be the the 1st time sureLoss is wrong
Commie and the real deal are close buddies I got a good feeling about this

[Dajazz]

Neal at six years is terrifying, five years scary and four years makes me nervous. Cap Hit is between 6.5-7.5 I am guessing.

He's a 25g scorer, 30+ when put on a good line. That's what the Flames need.

[Svartsengi]

Mike Commodore as the insiderrrr also said Tavares wouldn't sign in Toronto after sitting in a room with Babcock for 15 minutes. Neal isn't coming here.

[flamesforcup]

I would be ok with a 4*5 if Mike Commodore is right. Basically the exact player we need.