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Old 01-05-2017, 08:53 AM   #21
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You know what hurts poor people? Artifically raising the cost of the basic necessities of life like gasoline, electricity, and food.
I think that the entire premise of a carbon tax is that it is intended to raise the cost to produce certain products and services so that the production cost of such more accurately reflects their true cost (including value of use of the commons, such as clean air etc.)
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Old 01-05-2017, 08:55 AM   #22
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That's an incredibly stupid statement.
Trolololol, dude. It's his schtick on this forum.
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Old 01-05-2017, 09:15 AM   #23
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I think that the entire premise of a carbon tax is that it is intended to raise the cost to produce certain products and services so that the production cost of such more accurately reflects their true cost (including value of use of the commons, such as clean air etc.)
I just don't buy into this "true cost" dogma. The reason any average person alive today enjoys a higher quality of life than even the richest people 200 years ago is because of cheap and plentiful energy.
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Old 01-05-2017, 09:15 AM   #24
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I think that the entire premise of a carbon tax is that it is intended to raise the cost to produce certain products and services so that the production cost of such more accurately reflects their true cost (including value of use of the commons, such as clean air etc.)
I would argue that its about as odious as the old MST in that unlike a GST or PST where we know the taxation on goods, with the Carbon tax, its a shadow tax because most goods go through multiple levels of manufacturing and transport so we never know for sure what the carbon tax expense is going to be and its a bit uncontrollable.
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Old 01-05-2017, 09:16 AM   #25
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I just don't buy into this "true cost" dogma. The reason any average person alive today enjoys a higher quality of life than even the richest people 200 years ago is because of cheap and plentiful energy riding on the backs of the underclasses and cheap second-world labour and manufacturing.
Fixed
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Old 01-05-2017, 09:17 AM   #26
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That's an incredibly stupid statement.
Look who is making it.
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Old 01-05-2017, 09:23 AM   #27
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Are you really implying that "riding on the backs of the underclasses" is a new thing relative to 200 years ago?
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Old 01-05-2017, 09:28 AM   #28
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Are you really implying that "riding on the backs of the underclasses" is a new thing relative to 200 years ago?
Globalization enables us to ride on the backs of underclasses in other countries, so I'd say it's far more magnified now.
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Old 01-05-2017, 09:30 AM   #29
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Are you really implying that "riding on the backs of the underclasses" is a new thing relative to 200 years ago?
You called him a troll one post ago and now you're feeding him?
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Old 01-05-2017, 09:35 AM   #30
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You called him a troll one post ago and now you're feeding him?
Probably because I'm sure even Resolute would acknowledge that psychnet is effective.
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Old 01-05-2017, 09:37 AM   #31
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Probably because I'm sure even Resolute would acknowledge that psychnet is effective.
Effective at adding nothing to this forum, you are correct.
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Old 01-05-2017, 09:39 AM   #32
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Probably because I'm sure even Resolute would acknowledge that psychnet is effective.
That he is. Also, as far as silly arguments goes, that one was rich, even for him.
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Old 01-05-2017, 09:44 AM   #33
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I just don't buy into this "true cost" dogma. The reason any average person alive today enjoys a higher quality of life than even the richest people 200 years ago is because of cheap and plentiful energy.
That is also the reason we have global warming that threatens the quality of life of billions of people. Seems consistent with the "true cost" theory to me.
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Old 01-05-2017, 09:48 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by PsYcNeT View Post
Globalization enables us to ride on the backs of underclasses in other countries, so I'd say it's far more magnified now.


https://ourworldindata.org/world-poverty/

This statement is irrefutably false. Extreme and moderate poverty has been falling around the world for decades, and has accelerated with the acceleration of globalization.

Globalization lifts the whole world, and helps poor countries much more than rich ones relative to existing standards in those respective countries.
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Old 01-05-2017, 09:50 AM   #35
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I posted this on the O Leary thread but it belongs here as well.

All I can say is that for my other small start-up we ship things and are paying a "carbon levy" to do this. I am not entirely sure how its calculated, but it will be a significant addition to our costs. At this point I can only say that we're eating it and our intention isn't to pass it on in large part because we ship to other jurisdictions that are not implementing a tax. That means less revenue, ergo less profits and less tax revenue for the Alberta government.

(this isn't my "main" business where I have the sub-forum)
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Old 01-05-2017, 09:51 AM   #36
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Globalization enables us to ride on the backs of underclasses in other countries, so I'd say it's far more magnified now.
While also lifting billions of them out of abject poverty. Or maybe you think everyone in India, China, and Vietnam would be happy spending their lives clinging to the brink absolute destitution as substinence farmers with no money, indoor plumbing, or possibility of improving the conditions of themselves or their children. Few people in the developing world would would go back to living like their parents or grandparents.

A new Pew Research poll found that capitalismís biggest supporters are all in Asia
A global median of 66 percent agreed that most people are better off in a free market economy, even if some people are rich and some people are poor. Support for capitalism was greatest among the developing world, where 71 percent of respondents supported capitalism, but capitalismís approval rating was still over 60 percent in both the developed and emerging world.
Support for Free Market System
Vietnam: 95
Bangladesh: 80
South Korea: 78
China: 76
Ghana: 75
Kenya: 74
Malaysia: 73
India: 72
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Old 01-05-2017, 09:52 AM   #37
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SNIP

This statement is irrefutably false. Extreme and moderate poverty has been falling around the world for decades, and has accelerated with the acceleration of globalization.

Globalization lifts the whole world, and helps poor countries much more than rich ones relative to existing standards in those respective countries.
Thank you for the charts, I learned something today.

That said, I question why the chart is based on a non-fluctuating arbitrary number of "$ per day" that doesn't take inflation and purchasing power into effect to calculate true poverty.
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Old 01-05-2017, 09:52 AM   #38
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That is also the reason we have global warming that threatens the quality of life of billions of people. Seems consistent with the "true cost" theory to me.
Since no one knows what the exact effect of global warming will be I'd rather stick with the defined benefits of cheap and plentiful energy.
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Old 01-05-2017, 09:53 AM   #39
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Thank you for the charts, I learned something today.

That said, I question why the chart is based on a non-fluctuating arbitrary number of "$ per day" that doesn't take inflation and purchasing power into effect to calculate true poverty.
Both charts are adjusted for inflation.
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Old 01-05-2017, 09:57 AM   #40
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Since no one knows what the exact effect of global warming will be I'd rather stick with the defined benefits of cheap and plentiful energy.
Fair enough. But for me, personally, I find such a position (especially with the ever-growing body of science on global warming and it's likely effects) to be totally reckless.
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