20/21 Norris finalists. Fox, Makar, Hedman. UPD: Fox wins

[vicarious]

If the Flames still had Fox, they wouldn't have Lindholm.

[GioforPM]

Hamilton's 27 years old played 9 seasons, for 3 teams, and his teams have not won a cup yet. So we'll see.

By next season, Caroline may well only have Gunler, Rees and Honka as assets from that trade, while Calgary will have both of the players they acquired at really nice contract levels.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by vicarious

If the Flames still had Fox, they wouldn't have Lindholm.

Either way, they are probably a middling club.

[Steve Bozek]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

I assume you chose where you want to work, I know I do.

I don't feel entitled, do you?

He did what he wanted within the system. If he had gone back to college for his 4th year, it would have cost him money in the long run. He, in fact, was willing to sacrifice money to work for the employer of his choice.

I mostly agree with this, but I still think the drafting team should get something for their efforts. I believe Fox had the benefit of attending one or two of the Flames' post-draft July camps (I realize NCAA players have to pay their own way to attend, but they get a lot from the experience).
I think the college player who does this should be in the category of a RFA - the signing team has to give up a draft pick to the team that drafted him or owns his rights (e.g. a pick at the level where he was drafted).

[Jore]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

Honestly, I'm glad Fox got nominated. Speaks volumes of the Flames' scouting staff to find a Norris contender in the 3rd round. Excellent job by scouting. Just pray next time the guy they pick actually wants to stick around.

As mentioned, I don't fault Fox for exploiting a loophole to live his dream. Him and his agent squirmed their way around the league until he landed his dream gig with NY. Now he gets nominated for a major award, and is going to get a massive payday by a team that hands out major contracts like candy. I don't fault anybody on this planet who finds a way to make their dreams come true and gets to cash in like that.


Maybe next time the Flames organization shouldn't suck so much for 30+ years, do a better job of building contender, and build themselves up to be a desirable destination. Than maybe players would actually want to stick around.

They should also keep their draft picks instead of throwing them away for Fantenbergs and maybe draft more Foxes

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Hamilton's 27 years old played 9 seasons, for 3 teams, and his teams have not won a cup yet. So we'll see.

By next season, Caroline may well only have Gunler, Rees and Honka as assets from that trade, while Calgary will have both of the players they acquired at really nice contract levels.

There does seem to be a disconnect between the advanced metrics on Hamilton, and even what his coaches seem to think.

I've brought this up before but I'm not even sure Carolina's coaches think that Hamilton is their best d-man.

In the regular season Slavin and Pesce both play more minutes per game than Hamilton, and if you look at 5v5 minutes you can add Skjei to that list as well.

He gets fat on PP ice time playing over 3 mintues a game on the PP, but the coaching staff do not play him on the PK pretty much at all.

Great advanced stats. Drives play offensively for sure. But I think it's tough to say you're a Norris level, elite #1 d-man when you're 3rd on your own team in minutes played, you might not even be the best d-man on your team (That's Slavin IMO), and your coaches don't play you on the PK at all.

Will be interesting to see what happens with him in Carolina because if they walk away / don't re-sign him then that could be the third team to kind of move away from Dougie in his 9 year career.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by CSharp

WTF - Adam F'n Fox - the one we traded away as spare change? LOL, that's gotta hurt!

Makar's gonna win anyway, but still, the Adam Fox we had as a prospect...

As spare change?
You mean in a deal where the Flames acquired two top of the line up young players?
That one?

[sureLoss]

Also don't forget the Islanders wanted Fox in the Hamonic trade.

They wanted a 1st, Fox, and another pick before the deal was settled upon as a 1st, 2nd, 2nd. So in the minds of another organization he was worth a 2nd+ back in 2017.

[GioforPM]

Hamilton wants Pietrangelo money I expect. I don't think he'll discount but I also don't think he wants out.

Canes are shedding $6.5 in goalie salary, and they are also done with Semin's $2.3M buyout next year. We'll see what goalie Ned wants. But aside from that, Svechnikov, maybe Foegele and Bean and of course Hamilton, they have no big raises for anyone coming. I think if they are willing to pay the salary, they can re-sign Hamilton.

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

As spare change?
You mean in a deal where the Flames acquired two top of the line up young players?
That one?

No, I meant Fox got put into the trade as a spare change

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

I assume you chose where you want to work, I know I do.

I don't feel entitled, do you?

He did what he wanted within the system. If he had gone back to college for his 4th year, it would have cost him money in the long run. He, in fact, was willing to sacrifice money to work for the employer of his choice.

I did not choose a career path where my employer got to draft my rights, neither did you.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by vicarious

If the Flames still had Fox, they wouldn't have Lindholm.

That is an assumption that would be hard to prove. Would have Carolina said 'no' if the Flames offered Hamilton, Ferland, and Anderson or Valamki, or a 1st? What if the Flames offered Hamilton and Bennett?

How do you know?

[N-E-B]

I don’t like what Fox did. He only wanted to sign in New York and that was obvious. I hate guys like that. So I just don’t have much time for Fox the person.

That said, I’m not overly bitter we lost him. We got two really good pieces in that trade. If anyone should be miffed about it it’s Carolina. As hard as he screwed us he screwed them twice as hard.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Steve Bozek

I mostly agree with this, but I still think the drafting team should get something for their efforts. I believe Fox had the benefit of attending one or two of the Flames' post-draft July camps (I realize NCAA players have to pay their own way to attend, but they get a lot from the experience).
I think the college player who does this should be in the category of a RFA - the signing team has to give up a draft pick to the team that drafted him or owns his rights (e.g. a pick at the level where he was drafted).

Calgary got lots for their efforts. Carolina traded his rights for a 2nd and a 3rd round pick. When Calgary traded his rights, his value would have been higher.

And Fox didn't do it, he never went UFA. it was just the threat of it. Carolina did much better than the pick you proposed anyway.

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by TOfan

That is an assumption that would be hard to prove. Would have Carolina said 'no' if the Flames offered Hamilton, Ferland, and Anderson or Valamki, or a 1st? What if the Flames offered Hamilton and Bennett?

How do you know?

When you put it that way, then good thing it was Fox and not Andersson, Valamaki, or a 1st. Fox was never interested in playing for the Flames. We would potentially be in a worse situation, minus both Fox plus one of Valimaki, Andersson, or Pelletier.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by vicarious

If the Flames still had Fox, they wouldn't have Lindholm.

They probably would. While he added value to the deal for sure, I can't imagine he was a deal breaker. They could have made up that value in another way.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

I did not choose a career path where my employer got to draft my rights, neither did you.

So what. They don't own those rights in perpetuity. There is an agreement that spells out the rights and obligations between those parties.

Fox played within the established rules. if a play decides to become a UFA, is he a scab to leave the team that drafted and developed him, simply because someone wants to pay him more money?

The fact that he's involved in a career path that involved someone drafting his rights gives him all the more right to live within the rules presented. A player gets to choose where he goes under the exiting rules in a number of ways. He simply choose exploring the earliest opportunity presented to him.

And the reason why the rule exists that allows all drafted players, whether they go to college, play junior or play in Europe, to become UFA's after 4 years? Those pesky anti-trust laws and anti-slavery laws which require the NHL to strike a balance between the interests of pro sport teams and the interest of players. The reason UFA exists in the first place is because the whole system was about to be struck down in MLB. The existing rules in all sports is considered a happy medium.

Fox chose a career path which allowed him to become a UFA 4 years after he was drafted if he chose to. He choose to, or at least was willing to chose, to become a UFA at that time.. Is a player considered nasty for taking a team to arbitration?

[bob-loblaw]

I want Makar to win, but if not this year I'm sure he's going to win the Norris multiple times. He had the highest PPG of the three, but also missed the most games.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by bob-loblaw

I want Makar to win, but if not this year I'm sure he's going to win the Norris multiple times. He had the highest PPG of the three, but also missed the most games.

For sure. He's arguably the best d-man out there today, but he missed a lot of games this year. If he played every game he's probably your winner, maybe easily.

[jjgallow]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

He was still a valuable trade chip, and even if he had inkling's of potentially not signing, it's a 3rd round pick. You draft him first, and figure that stuff out later. It was still absolutely the right choice by the Flames to take him where he was.

Absolutely it was the right move to draft him. They held onto him for too long though.