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Old 01-18-2020, 02:51 PM   #21
Erick Estrada
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This is why I'm not a fan of trading draft picks for average rental players like Tyler Toffoli. This team is already paying the price for too many draft picks traded. More trades like this simply digs the hole deeper.
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Old 01-18-2020, 02:55 PM   #22
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The thing with Gawdin was while his offensive explosion in Speedy Creek WAS largely a product of finally getting to play with high-end guys, he was always a smart 200-foot junior player and the question was what he could do when paired with better guys.


He projects as a complementary player, sure, but he could be somebody that you throw with skilled players and doesn't drag them down (Ferland-style).
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Old 01-19-2020, 12:02 PM   #23
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Hischier is one of the players they’re building around. Them moving him would be like us moving Lindholm or Tkachuk, ain’t gonna happen.


I agree. People throw around NJ as a possible trade partner. Wondering what kind of return the Flames would expect for him, not necessarily what NJ would do.
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Old 01-19-2020, 12:32 PM   #24
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I'm hoping for an article on prospect graduation over a five year span, for each team. A successful minor league program should be graded on the success of the players in the major league.
The purpose of the article is not to grade the success rate of the minor league program, it's simply to access the current prospects.

It's very true that teams which have recently graduated a number of prospects take a hit in these rankings.

The article is not suggesting that Calgary has done a poor job of this. It's simply saying that it's current prospects are below average as a group.

I would also like to see an article like you are suggesting. But that's likely quite an undertaking.
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Old 01-19-2020, 12:48 PM   #25
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One thing that these lists say is that our scouts can be relied upon to dig up some talent in the middle to late rounds. Much more so than 10 years ago.
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Old 01-20-2020, 01:08 PM   #26
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Very interesting that he likes Pelletier so much. I know that Pronman is not a fan of his skating ( something that he really values). Pelletier, in my limited viewings of him has the markings of an NHLer. I wouldn't be surprised if he is the first player on that list to become a full time Flame.
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Old 01-20-2020, 01:15 PM   #27
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We just don't have prospects worth trading right now, that's the problem.

What's someone going to give you for Pelletier? Not a lot, without at least a 2nd attached, and probably a 1st. Same with Gawdin. Passed that, we have Valimaki/Kylington, and nobody wants to trade them.

I really expect a big 2nd half from Kylington. He was spectacular in the Montreal game, and he's been showing flashes of breaking out since the year began, and if/when Brodie/Hamonic depart, we'll need him.

Gio-Andersson
Hanifin-Kylington
Valimaki-X

Move some of the money from the back end into another forward.

The more I look at a future without Brodie/Hamonic, the more I'm thinking we go 4/4/1 in expansion, leaving Gio exposed. It's really the only way to protect all our young D.

Lindholm
Monahan
Tkachuk
Gaudreau/Gaudreau replacement/Backlund

Hanifin
Andersson
Kylington
Valimaki

BSD

We don't have 7 forwards worth protecting.
I would be fine with the setup you have unless Dube/Mangiapane take big steps forward.

Otherwise you are correct we lack forwards worth protecting. Its comedic that we only have 4 legit forwards worth protecting yet everyone is so willing to trade one of them right now instead of seeing the bigger issues at play here.
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Old 01-20-2020, 01:32 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Erick Estrada View Post
This is why I'm not a fan of trading draft picks for average rental players like Tyler Toffoli. This team is already paying the price for too many draft picks traded. More trades like this simply digs the hole deeper.
4 out of the 5 teams with worse prospects pools have won cups and made the finals very recently

The teams he has as worse prospect pools:
27. St. Louis Blues

28. Pittsburgh Penguins

29. Washington Capitals

30. Boston Bruins

31. Columbus Blue Jackets

Teams generally have less prospects when they are good and in the win now phase. Flames were 2nd best in the NHL last year and trading picks to get above the hump is exactly what Flames should be doing. Capitals won the cup on what was considered a retooling year. The thing about prospect pools is they are no longer considered prospects if they become NHLers, which seems to be counter intuitive as you have so called prospects 2-3 years older than some guys on the team.

Our D corps age is 22, 29, 22, 22, 35, 20 assuming one of Hamonic or Brodie is moved.

We are in a win now state and should be buyers. Last year's lack of trade deadline deals cost us severely.
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Old 01-20-2020, 02:06 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Firebot View Post
4 out of the 5 teams with worse prospects pools have won cups and made the finals very recently

The teams he has as worse prospect pools:
27. St. Louis Blues

28. Pittsburgh Penguins

29. Washington Capitals

30. Boston Bruins

31. Columbus Blue Jackets

Teams generally have less prospects when they are good and in the win now phase. Flames were 2nd best in the NHL last year and trading picks to get above the hump is exactly what Flames should be doing. Capitals won the cup on what was considered a retooling year. The thing about prospect pools is they are no longer considered prospects if they become NHLers, which seems to be counter intuitive as you have so called prospects 2-3 years older than some guys on the team.

Our D corps age is 22, 29, 22, 22, 35, 20 assuming one of Hamonic or Brodie is moved.

We are in a win now state and should be buyers. Last year's lack of trade deadline deals cost us severely.
Anyone that's watched this team play this season would know that this team isn't winning anything now nor were they even close last season. Would a rental at the deadline last season make the defense group not look terrible against the Avs? If that forward acquired at the deadline matched or bested Bennett as Flames best forward would that been enough to move the needle? I don't think so as if you ranked the best Flames rosters of all time you would get probably 4 or 5 from the 80's, a couple from the early 90's, one or two from the Darryl years and this and last season's roster. I have been around for all those teams and this is by far the worst team of those in regards for effort level and willingness to win. It's like they have lost the will to go out and battle or something as they have had all these meek efforts where they get shut out and have stretches where they seem perfectly fine with coasting for 60 minutes. I have never seen a Flames team where the give a crap meter is so low. It's embarrassing quite frankly and the reason the players were probably tiring of Peters is that he recognized this and was doing a lot of prodding to get them out of it to no avail. They are a talented roster of players that aren't focused on doing what it takes to win a cup. Not the first team to be like this or the last but they are what they are.

I get that we are in an era where nobody has patience and hockey fans especially pine for trades but it's highly unlikely a middling forward like Toffoli is going to cure the ails of this team. This teams issues are terminal at the core unfortunately.

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Old 01-20-2020, 03:07 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erick Estrada View Post
Anyone that's watched this team play this season would know that this team isn't winning anything now nor were they even close last season. Would a rental at the deadline last season make the defense group not look terrible against the Avs? If that forward acquired at the deadline matched or bested Bennett as Flames best forward would that been enough to move the needle? I don't think so as if you ranked the best Flames rosters of all time you would get probably 4 or 5 from the 80's, a couple from the early 90's, one or two from the Darryl years and this and last season's roster. I have been around for all those teams and this is by far the worst team of those in regards for effort level and willingness to win. It's like they have lost the will to go out and battle or something as they have had all these meek efforts where they get shut out and have stretches where they seem perfectly fine with coasting for 60 minutes. I have never seen a Flames team where the give a crap meter is so low. It's embarrassing quite frankly and the reason the players were probably tiring of Peters is that he recognized this and was doing a lot of prodding to get them out of it to no avail. They are a talented roster of players that aren't focused on doing what it takes to win a cup. Not the first team to be like this or the last but they are what they are.

I get that we are in an era where nobody has patience and hockey fans especially pine for trades but it's highly unlikely a middling forward like Toffoli is going to cure the ails of this team. This teams issues are terminal at the core unfortunately.
https://www.hockey-reference.com/box...&month=1&day=2

Would be Stanley Cup Champions dead last in the NHL even below the lowly Senators last year on Jan 2. This was a team that people were talking of blowing up just a few months prior to winning the cup.

The Flames are currently in a playoff spot, and barring a collapse should make it. They are 3 points away from 2nd in the conference.

Tampa Bay Lightning were also swept in 4, should they be rebuilding?

I don't get it. The team certainly is not perfect and has some motivational issues, but every team has its issues. Parity in the NHL means the difference between a non-playoff team and a Stanley Cup champion can be small at times, but this team is certainly not in the aging veterans / need to rebuild crowd. I do think that trading Gaudreau may be needed as the team does need an attitude shift and it does not seem like he wants to be here, but this is not a team that needs a rebuild. This is what a newly competitive team looks like, and it has its highs and lows (see Canucks 2007-11). It's frustrating, until eventually (and hopefully) they pull it off.

Let's not forget, last year the Flames were an OT goal away from being 2-0 in the series with a dominating game 1 and a tightly played game 2. Everyone looked past the Avalanche at the time.

Avalanche got the momentum and took over. That's what parity does.

Last edited by Firebot; 01-20-2020 at 03:10 PM.
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Old 01-20-2020, 04:27 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Firebot View Post
4 out of the 5 teams with worse prospects pools have won cups and made the finals very recently

The teams he has as worse prospect pools:
27. St. Louis Blues

28. Pittsburgh Penguins

29. Washington Capitals

30. Boston Bruins

31. Columbus Blue Jackets

Teams generally have less prospects when they are good and in the win now phase. Flames were 2nd best in the NHL last year and trading picks to get above the hump is exactly what Flames should be doing. Capitals won the cup on what was considered a retooling year. The thing about prospect pools is they are no longer considered prospects if they become NHLers, which seems to be counter intuitive as you have so called prospects 2-3 years older than some guys on the team.

Our D corps age is 22, 29, 22, 22, 35, 20 assuming one of Hamonic or Brodie is moved.

We are in a win now state and should be buyers. Last year's lack of trade deadline deals cost us severely.
Couldn't disagree more.
Chances of winning the cup are the highest when you have a long window. To have a long window, you need to have a good track record of drafting and developing prospects.

The last 10 cup winners were all consistently in the playoffs. It's about the number of stabs - not the quality of the stabs. St. Louis, Boston, Washington, Pittsburgh all have made the playoffs in at least 9 of the past 10 years (if I'm not mistaken). Chicago had a decade long streak of making the playoffs as well. Even the Kings had a good run. San Jose and Nashville are really the only exceptions, and even they both made it to the finals eventually.
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Old 01-20-2020, 04:29 PM   #32
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The interesting guy to me is Gawdin. He did have great linemates, and he did have gaudy over age numbers but what I find interesting is what's happened to all three Wheat King players since.

Tyler Steenbergen of WJC fame has 37 points in 98 AHL games.
Aleksi Heponiemi went home for a year so his sample size is smaller, but 8 points in 33 AHL games.

Gawdin ... 74 points in 101 AHL games.

Maybe Gawdin was the engine all the while?
Honestly I thought he looked better than Dube and Phillips in pre-season this year.

Then he outperformed both of them in the AHL too.

To me he looked like a guy who's skating had taken a step allowing his game to translate at a higher level.

He should be called up to get a look to see what we have IMO.
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Old 01-20-2020, 04:39 PM   #33
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Where did the other Canadian teams rank?
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Old 01-20-2020, 04:45 PM   #34
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Glad the Flames rank poorly. It shows that their "prospects" have actually managed to graduate into NHL players. Having guys like Tkachuk stepping in right away and foregoing the prospect stage is huge. On top of that all of Valimaki, Andersson, and Kylington look like actual NHLers.

Ditching our first 3 rounds of picks in 2018 is a bit of a letdown. But every top pick from 2012-2017 is playing on the roster right now. That's how you end up with a bad prospect pool.
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Old 01-20-2020, 04:48 PM   #35
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Couldn't disagree more.
Chances of winning the cup are the highest when you have a long window. To have a long window, you need to have a good track record of drafting and developing prospects.

The last 10 cup winners were all consistently in the playoffs. It's about the number of stabs - not the quality of the stabs. St. Louis, Boston, Washington, Pittsburgh all have made the playoffs in at least 9 of the past 10 years (if I'm not mistaken). Chicago had a decade long streak of making the playoffs as well. Even the Kings had a good run. San Jose and Nashville are really the only exceptions, and even they both made it to the finals eventually.
All those teams you mentioned also had a near decade of mediocrity (there's a reason why the Hawks got Kane and Toews, and Penguins Crosby and Malkin) with the two exceptions San Jose and Nashville as you mentioned. Same for Capitals with Overchin and Boston was very mediocre for a while. So has the Blues (missing 5 of 6 years before their playoff streak). Kings missed the playoffs 6 years in a row before their run.

The Flames are likely to be consistently in the playoffs (should have made it the last Gulutzan year but it gave us Tkachuk), and are just at the start of this run. People forget it takes time.
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Old 01-20-2020, 04:51 PM   #36
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Where did the other Canadian teams rank?
only 24 - 31 have been ranked so far. No other Canadian teams yet.
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Old 01-20-2020, 08:41 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Firebot View Post
https://www.hockey-reference.com/box...&month=1&day=2

Would be Stanley Cup Champions dead last in the NHL even below the lowly Senators last year on Jan 2. This was a team that people were talking of blowing up just a few months prior to winning the cup.

The Flames are currently in a playoff spot, and barring a collapse should make it. They are 3 points away from 2nd in the conference.

Tampa Bay Lightning were also swept in 4, should they be rebuilding?

I don't get it. The team certainly is not perfect and has some motivational issues, but every team has its issues. Parity in the NHL means the difference between a non-playoff team and a Stanley Cup champion can be small at times, but this team is certainly not in the aging veterans / need to rebuild crowd. I do think that trading Gaudreau may be needed as the team does need an attitude shift and it does not seem like he wants to be here, but this is not a team that needs a rebuild. This is what a newly competitive team looks like, and it has its highs and lows (see Canucks 2007-11). It's frustrating, until eventually (and hopefully) they pull it off.

Let's not forget, last year the Flames were an OT goal away from being 2-0 in the series with a dominating game 1 and a tightly played game 2. Everyone looked past the Avalanche at the time.

Avalanche got the momentum and took over. That's what parity does.


I don’t recall the first game being a dominating win, regardless of the score. In fact, I recall that the Avs had more scoring chances, although my memory could be wrong.


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Old 01-21-2020, 10:53 AM   #38
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The meme that the Flames have so many more "prospects" playing in the NHL does not stand up to the facts.

The Flames are smack in the middle of the average age of the top 20 players at 15 th spot 28.1 years old.

The oldest roster in the NHL is LA @ 30.7 and the youngest team is Colorado at 27.1

The average age of the 620 NHL players is 28.4

This site has Valimaki in the top 20 Flames and have his age correct at 21.3

www.rosterresource.com/nhl-roster-breakdowns/
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Old 01-21-2020, 11:06 AM   #39
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Where did the other Canadian teams rank?
Jets Ranked 23rd.
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Old 01-21-2020, 11:19 AM   #40
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I don’t recall the first game being a dominating win, regardless of the score. In fact, I recall that the Avs had more scoring chances, although my memory could be wrong.


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The game ended up 4-0 (one empty net) Flames won in every single category and had a 65% faceoff. Mackinnon was visibly frustrated the whole game.



Game 2 was much tighter as expected, but again Flames won in most categories including faceoffs again. Flames had tons of chances to win it even before OT (the end of the 3rd in particular). They couldn't capitalize and Mackinnon happened.

We all know how the series went after that and how the Flames collapsed while the Avs surged, but it's revisionist history to think that the Flames were not doing very well at first.
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