The "We can do better for our parents/grandparents" Senior Care Thread

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by Sliver

And that's where it's like, WTF are we even doing? Why is longevity a goal? Who wants to live into their late 80s and 90s? Of course you'll get a few CPers who will say their grandpa was sharp as a tack right up until his 97th birthday and there are those exceptions. If, however, you're living in a government-run care home for your last decade or so, that is an absolutely miserable existence. There is no way to "do better" for those people to the point of giving them a fulfilling life. They are literally waiting to die. All their milestones have come and gone. Anything they have to offer is irrelevant and unneeded.

The best we could do is give them an off ramp. "Do better" for them. Yeah, how do you do better for an 85 year old with dementia? And how much money and human resources do you throw at that for absolutely no pay off and when it isn't even benefiting anything or anyone? And dragging somebody's life out for an extra 10 years plus is cruel to them and their family who is expected to visit them and pay for them. It's stressful and takes a lot of time and energy family members may not have to spare. And it can go on for years and years.

The figures I have seen places Canada third from the bottom, in terms of how they treat their elderly, with the US in last place.

If there is any nation, that is blessed with the abundance of resources that we have, they should be able go give their elderly a better sendoff.

I think it's difficult and wrong for young people to try and judge what constitutes a life worth living. Many elderly who have diminished freedom, poor health, even pain, are still managing to enjoy what they have left of their life. Simple things like the voice or sight of a loved one, the touch of a hand, the memory (if they have one) of things past, etc. may be able to make a person's day.

My uncle's wife started suffering from dementia, starting at 86, and my uncle visited her in a nursing home faithfully almost every day for many years. He said his wife, even in the later stages, always gave him a smile, seemed to know he was there, and I think somehow in a way it gave added meaning to their lives.

"the greatness of a nation can be judged by how well it treats its weakest member" Ghandi

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

And who is going to pay for this ?

There are amazing old age homes if you want/are able to pay for it.

Like everything - education , healthcare, nursing homes - if you expect the government to pay and give you the best service you better be willing to pay much more in taxes, which people usually aren’t.

I see your point. However, I think for many changes the added cost will not be that excessive.

I think it will take better leadership, and thinking outside the box to make things better for the elderly. One of the best things to come along fairly recently is to spend money on home care in order to keep the elderly in their own home. Also I think tax incentives for people who leave their job to care for their elders is a good move.

In the old days in Canada, many elderly family members came to live with their young. This was the case in my and my wife's family. However, this is seldom the case nowadays. Perhaps we have had it too good for too long, and our values have changed accordingly.

IMO putting a family member in a low income nursing home should be a last resort.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I think we're letting ourselves live too long with no opportunity for a reasonable quality of life.

I remember my friend's grandma in her 90s telling us, 'you don't want to reach my age...all your friends are dead.'

I remember my uncle saying about his mom how he'd put a pillow over her head 'if he loved her more' once she lost her marbles due to dimentia.

My wife's grandma had signed a do not recussitate order, but ended up recussitated in the hospital before the order had made its way into the medical system. She was so fataing mad to have to keep living with her crappy health. She was crying, 'what am I doing here?'

Out of compassion, we don't let dogs and cats live in the same conditions we guilt the elderly into existing with for years on end.

Basically, once someone becomes a great grandparent they are redundant, super old, not relevant and they know it. I've yet to talk to one that isn't ready to go. Very few thrive in these old folks homes. They're just pergatories.

It also costs a fortune to keep these people in their barely-alive condition, takes a ton of resources and is ill-conceived. The kindest thing we could do is provide access to euthanasia and let people call it a day easily and without guilt.

I am a huge proponent of making assisted suicide more accessible. My mom, a very pragmatic woman, is convinced that she would like to leave on her own terms, rather than become the nightmare that was her mother - who suffered from dementia and never made peace with the fact she she needed to live in a home. The logistics of this are difficult to achieve though, and taking matters int your own hands could get pretty ugly.

That said, my parents - who are a wee bit away still, are already making peace with the fact that they will live in a home one day. A part of the problem is that people don't come to grips with the fact that living in a home is almost inevitable (unless you're a millionaire). Hell, I am still 50 or so years from needing to move into a home, but i've already starting telling myself that it will happen, just for the sake of not making myself and everyone around me miserable when the time eventually comes.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I see your point. However, I think for many changes the added cost will not be that excessive.

I think it will take better leadership, and thinking outside the box to make things better for the elderly. One of the best things to come along fairly recently is to spend money on home care in order to keep the elderly in their own home. Also I think tax incentives for people who leave their job to care for their elders is a good move.

In the old days in Canada, many elderly family members came to live with their young. This was the case in my and my wife's family. However, this is seldom the case nowadays. Perhaps we have had it too good for too long, and our values have changed accordingly.

IMO putting a family member in a low income nursing home should be a last resort.

Elderly family members would come live with their children so they could help raise their grandchildren. I don't see much of that in our culture, anymore.

It is hard to imagine my mom living in my house. She'd drive us absolutely nuts. I wonder if you need to be steeped in that sort of culture where you were raised by your grandparents so your parents could work, then your parents helped raise your kids so you could work, etc.

Watching my mom's generation spend all their money, winter away, and then want to come live with me would not work at all. I'm not having it. We raised our kids - and it hasn't been easy as both my wife and I have demanding jobs - while our parents did basically jack squat to help us. I'll help a bit as they get older, but it'll be directly proportional to the help they gave us when we could have used some assistance. All my peers share this sentiment.

[corporatejay]

Mandatory DNRs at 80. Boom, problem solved.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Mandatory DNRs at 80. Boom, problem solved.

That's a seriously good idea.

[Lubicon]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Mandatory DNRs at 80. Boom, problem solved.

There isn't a politician alive on this planet that would put their name on this legislation.

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by Lubicon

There isn't a politician alive on this planet that would put their name on this legislation.

Because it’s a seriously bad idea. I’m guessing it wasn’t serious.

[Geraldsh]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Mandatory DNRs at 80. Boom, problem solved.

Yes!
Both my parents had DNRs and their advocate, my sister(Who is an RNA with attitude) had to really fight to have their wishes honoured.
My father was 80 and had been dealing with a damaged heart for years. The doctor wanted to give him a new heart, at 80, in spite of obvious failure starting to happen with other organs.

My mother was given a pacemaker at 84 which kept her going to 94 but she was tired and would rather have passed on 5 years sooner.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by Zevo

Because it’s a seriously bad idea. I’m guessing it wasn’t serious.

Why?

You get 80 years, after that, pallative care, medicines etc... are fine but surgery? Cancer treatments?

Nope.

probably would help with climate change too.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Why?

You get 80 years, after that, pallative care, medicines etc... are fine but surgery? Cancer treatments?

Nope.

probably would help with climate change too.

That's just not doable. So if someone needs their gal bladder taken out, you just let them suffer in pain until they die? Even if simple surgery could give them 15 more years of comfortable life? Or someone gets skin cancer(small spot) but instead of doing an easy removal, they die? Blanket stuff like that just doesn't compute.

[burn_this_city]

These ideas seem good in abstract until you or a loved one are approaching the threshold.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

These ideas seem good in abstract until you or a loved one are approaching the threshold.

Not necessarily. I've arrived at my opinion after watching loved ones decline and live unfulfilling lives for too long.

[bigtmac19]

The military report on what the soldiers saw going on in long-term care homes in Ontario is revolting! Reusing syringes and catheters, not bathing residents for weeks, fecal contamination everywhere, cockroach infestations.

Let alone all the COVID-19 failures.

Allowing long term care to be “for profit” is nothing but a license to abuse vulnerable people.

Good lord, heads need to roll.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

But this didnt answer the question at all I asked : Who is going to pay for better care?

The fact you were volunteering shows how cash strapped these places are.

Either we have :

1. A shortage of supply for good quality care that people are willing to pay for - In which case there is a great opportunity for business
2. A shortage in demand for the good quality care due to their costs

It is almost certainly #2. This is why places cut costs at every corner.

It is similar to the airline business. Everyone complains about bad food, small, seats, etc but keep pressuring the airlines to lower costs.

Unless we go to a government subsidized model where everyone gets amazing care, it just wont happen.

And then the ultimate question as with everything "Who will pay for these government costs"

People like to preach about better education, better medical, better long term care facilities, but they vote with their wallet, which is for lower taxes usually.

You can't have it both ways!

(And yes I know I am ignore inefficiency arguments, better care per $ spent, etc ,etc)

Tuck them in and forget about them is not the answer either.

We need to get rid of private for profit operators. They seem to be the ones that cause the most problems in the industry. The idea of someone making a profit over senior care has always made me sick.

To get good people you need to pay people like PCA's a lot more than minimum wage. It's not surprising that most of these positions are filled by TFW's.

We also need to improve regulations and standards for care in these facilities.

Just give them a good level of care so we don't have to read the horror stories coming out of Ontario. Be proactive instead of reacting.

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by bigtmac19

The military report on what the soldiers saw going on in long-term care homes in Ontario is revolting! Reusing syringes and catheters, not bathing residents for weeks, fecal contamination everywhere, cockroach infestations.

Let alone all the COVID-19 failures.

Allowing long term care to be “for profit” is nothing but a license to abuse vulnerable people.

Good lord, heads need to roll.

Here is a link to the report.

http://www.documentcloud.org/documen...TCF-in-On.html

As a Canadian, this is one of the most shameful and embarrassing things I've ever read. For one of the supposed best countries in the world, to read about how seniors are treated in various parts of this country is disgraceful. Heads most certainly need to roll and not just slaps on the wrist or people fired. There should be massive fines, criminal charges and those people responsible should be publicly named & shamed. The worst part is that this has been happening loooooongggg before this report came out and it's certainly not unique to Ontario.

I wrote a post earlier in this thread about how both my Grandmothers were in assisted living units and how lucky they were to be in ''good'' ones, but now it has me thinking about if that is actually the case. I don't doubt there are good places with good people. But now that this has been exposed, this is likely the very tip of the iceberg.

I encourage everyone to read the full report. It's disgusting, heartbreaking and will make you angry AF. This is shameful this is happening and I'm glad it's getting international attention and is well-deserved. I look forward to the day charges are laid upon those who are responsible and their names are out in the public domain.

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Why?

You get 80 years, after that, pallative care, medicines etc... are fine but surgery? Cancer treatments?

Nope.

probably would help with climate change too.

Voluntary? Sure. Being serious about mandatory dnrs is one of the dumbest and most barbaric things I've read on here. So many people are vibrant, relatively healthy and active after 80. You really have no clue if in fact you are being genuine.

Youth really does seem to be wasted on the young.

[troutman]

My Dad had part of his colon removed and open heart surgery, well into his 70s. I'm not sure it made any difference to his longevity or quality of life. But I think it was his right to consent to those procedures.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

Here is a link to the report.

http://www.documentcloud.org/documen...TCF-in-On.html

As a Canadian, this is one of the most shameful and embarrassing things I've ever read. For one of the supposed best countries in the world, to read about how seniors are treated in various parts of this country is disgraceful. Heads most certainly need to roll and not just slaps on the wrist or people fired. There should be massive fines, criminal charges and those people responsible should be publicly named & shamed. The worst part is that this has been happening loooooongggg before this report came out and it's certainly not unique to Ontario.

I wrote a post earlier in this thread about how both my Grandmothers were in assisted living units and how lucky they were to be in ''good'' ones, but now it has me thinking about if that is actually the case. I don't doubt there are good places with good people. But now that this has been exposed, this is likely the very tip of the iceberg.

I encourage everyone to read the full report. It's disgusting, heartbreaking and will make you angry AF. This is shameful this is happening and I'm glad it's getting international attention and is well-deserved. I look forward to the day charges are laid upon those who are responsible and their names are out in the public domain.

It seems every single one of those items that needs to be addressed would cost money. Add all of those items up, and we're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars (if not into the millions) for each care home. I don't see where that money comes from, but absolutely agree (who wouldn't?) that the level of care is insufficient.

I really wonder if you walked around on of these care homes with fecal matter everywhere, people wandering around with COVID and cockroach infestations and asked the residents if they just wanted to say their goodbyes and be on their way how many would take you up on that. I think a huge percentage. Once that's done, all the problems could be solved. It is the best solution if people want to voluntarily accept it.

It's blindingly obvious we don't have the resources to provide the level of care people expect us to be able to provide. I mean, "heads should roll." What? Let's find out what is going on, and what people are willing to give up in order to afford the gargantuan sums of money you're proposing need to be injected into old folks' homes in order to get them up to a standard we'd ourselves be willing to live in.

I know for me, I won't live in an institution at any point in my life if I can help it. My last days won't be in a #### bed in a #### building with #### staff eating #### food. I'll bow out before I hit that point - it'll save taxpayers 10s or 100s of thousands and I won't have to live in purgatory for a decade or so, which is priceless to me. Plus, I'd rather leave my kids/grandkids with some money before I blow it all living in a craphole.

[bigtmac19]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

Here is a link to the report.

http://www.documentcloud.org/documen...TCF-in-On.html

As a Canadian, this is one of the most shameful and embarrassing things I've ever read. For one of the supposed best countries in the world, to read about how seniors are treated in various parts of this country is disgraceful. Heads most certainly need to roll and not just slaps on the wrist or people fired. There should be massive fines, criminal charges and those people responsible should be publicly named & shamed. The worst part is that this has been happening loooooongggg before this report came out and it's certainly not unique to Ontario.

I wrote a post earlier in this thread about how both my Grandmothers were in assisted living units and how lucky they were to be in ''good'' ones, but now it has me thinking about if that is actually the case. I don't doubt there are good places with good people. But now that this has been exposed, this is likely the very tip of the iceberg.

I encourage everyone to read the full report. It's disgusting, heartbreaking and will make you angry AF. This is shameful this is happening and I'm glad it's getting international attention and is well-deserved. I look forward to the day charges are laid upon those who are responsible and their names are out in the public domain.

When my parents first went into Assisted Living it was a privately owned facility. Not that long after they moved there Chartwell bought the place and it was glaringly obvious that these companies are all about the money and nothing else. All the amenities that made the place nice when my parents moved in disappeared very quickly along with a lot of the staff being cut and many lapses in care.

It's these biggest companies, such as Chartwell, their main customers are the Government of Ontario - it's no wonder Doug Ford cut inspections of long-term care homes as soon as he came to power.

And now he wants to play the role that he's so disgusted and sick about it. Yeah because he got caught, once again, being the catalyst for this issue.