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Old 04-08-2020, 08:21 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by dino7c View Post
Average roster, terrible coaching

95 points

Makes sense
Well 80 points is bad these days and the points total this year was actually inflated due to SO wins so...
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Old 04-08-2020, 08:33 PM   #142
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Well 80 points is bad these days and the points total this year was actually inflated due to SO wins so...
SO wins are part of the game every team has them...and at worst they are a tie
not sure where you get 80 points from you can't just call every SO game a loss.

You like BB right? Gallant? What would you expect the point total to be under one of them? Gotta be in at least 100
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Old 04-08-2020, 08:38 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by dino7c View Post
SO wins are part of the game every team has them...and at worst they are a tie

not sure where you get 80 points from you can't just call every SO game a loss.



You like BB right? Gallant? What would you expect the point total to be under one of them? Gotta be in at least 100
Look at the standings. 80 points isnt even average anymore. I don't know what the average is... 88? Something like that? I think the flames are 85-95 right now depending on luck... maybe 100 under Boudreau or gallant. A top tier coach is probably worth 3-5 wins one would think. Is my position really that out to lunch?
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Old 04-08-2020, 09:23 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix View Post
Look at the standings. 80 points isnt even average anymore. I don't know what the average is... 88? Something like that? I think the flames are 85-95 right now depending on luck... maybe 100 under Boudreau or gallant. A top tier coach is probably worth 3-5 wins one would think. Is my position really that out to lunch?
I just don't understand how you can think the coaching was so terrible yet the team was playing at the top end of what you think the roster is capable of

I would take Gallant and I would expect at least a 100 point season...I mean Ward had them playing at that pace
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Old 04-08-2020, 09:28 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix View Post
Look at the standings. 80 points isnt even average anymore. I don't know what the average is... 88? Something like that? I think the flames are 85-95 right now depending on luck... maybe 100 under Boudreau or gallant. A top tier coach is probably worth 3-5 wins one would think. Is my position really that out to lunch?
Your position is extreme in the sense that it is pretty much the worst case of every scenario: The players overachieved last year; the record is inflated this year; the roster is at best average; the coaching has held the team back. The thing is, all of these things cannot possibly be true.

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Old 04-08-2020, 09:54 PM   #146
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How many more points would a new coach need to get to justify the added cost, especially when teams are losing a huge amount of gate revenues right now?
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Old 04-09-2020, 08:04 AM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dino7c View Post
I just don't understand how you can think the coaching was so terrible yet the team was playing at the top end of what you think the roster is capable of



I would take Gallant and I would expect at least a 100 point season...I mean Ward had them playing at that pace
Did ward though? 95 isn't 100 and there was more SO wins than they would typically get. Maybe terrible coaching was the wrong word, too strong. Maybe he didn't cost them too many points but he didn't steal any either. Average placeholder coaching. A 90+ point team that achieved roughly that. Boudreau or gallant gets another 5-7 points, increasing the team's top end.

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Old 04-09-2020, 08:22 AM   #148
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Your position is extreme in the sense that it is pretty much the worst case of every scenario: The players overachieved last year; the record is inflated this year; the roster is at best average; the coaching has held the team back. The thing is, all of these things cannot possibly be true.

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I think it is possible that all those things can happen at the same time if you subscribe to the belief that 18/19 was totally unsustainable in every way and one of the biggest 3 month overacheiving stretches in recent history by any team. An extended hot streak that cannot be maintained in a million years. Did people not think it was too good to be true when we had 5 ppg players 3 months in? I think people are letting 18/19 skew expectations when none of the players except tkachuk seem capable of playing to that level in any given year. I mean Gaudreau got 36 goals ffs and was on a 120 point pace at one point if I remember correctly and more likely to be 20-25 goals than 36 ever again with his shot and shot selection. He's a ppg player every other year. Monahan nearly 50 apples. He's closer to a 50 point player than a 50 assist player in my eyes. Lindholm's assist production tanked in year two with the team thanks to Johnny and Monahan going back to normal. Giordano summoning his inner Bobby Orr for 70+ points. Yeah... thats repeatable. Luckily we have Matthew Tkachuk. Too bad he was signed to a bridge, that will burn us big time in a couple years.

The coach can hold the team back if he's just there, a warm body on the bench not adding extra value, which is what ward is imo.

The roster is 85-95 point level which is indicated by 3 out of the last 4 years playing at that pace. 18/19 the outlier. The coaching added zero wins to the baseline imo. The difference in opinion comes from analyzing what 18/19 truly was: overacheiving on steroids.
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Old 04-09-2020, 09:27 AM   #149
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How many more points would a new coach need to get to justify the added cost, especially when teams are losing a huge amount of gate revenues right now?
I assume Ward has a year left on his current deal as an assistant which isn't breaking the bank. He would be in line for a raise if he was permanently hired so I'm not sure the added cost of hiring a new coach is overly significant in the big picture. The aftermath of this pandemic will surely lead to some season ticket cancellations and cheaping out on a coach leading to mediocre results is not likely to aid the team in trying to win back season ticket holders. Fans aren't ignorant. Most know the team has done a poor job of hiring head coaches over the years and the next coaching hire will be telling of the organization's real goals (every team says their goal is to win the cup but actions of many show otherwise). The hire will tell us if the organization has finally decided to make a full commitment to becoming a legit cup contender or continue spinning their wheels in mediocrity with the bar set at just making the playoffs.

If Treliving is shut down by every top candidate and sticks with Ward that's one thing as it's very possible one or more of the candidates may prefer to stay in the US. But if we hear the Flames didn't even reach out to the top candidates the message will be loud and clear.
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Old 04-13-2020, 04:04 PM   #150
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Really interesting Reddit post here about Boudreau and Selänne.

https://old.reddit.com/r/hockey/comm...ruce_boudreau/

here's an excerpt:

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In the Sochi Olympics Teemu was determined to show that he still "had it". He played well and was sure that things would change when he came back to the NHL. Teemu played even less after the Olympics! (he is really pissed of when he says this in the video). After a game in Colorado Teemu asked to speak to Boudreau in private. Teemu said that "give me one chance, let me play with Getzlaf and Perry for three games. If I don't perform, then I'll retire. I tried to show you in Sochi what I can do, but you play me even less now." Boudreau agreed. Teemu played in the 1st line for three games with stats 2+2, he was the first star in two games. In the fourth game, after the 1st period Teemu was once again pushed down to the 3rd line. After this he decided to retire.

Teemu was so dissapointed with Boudreau after this. He didn't keep his promise and he didn't speak to Teemu straight but instead came up with excuses.
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Old 04-13-2020, 04:16 PM   #151
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The team was on pace for 95 points in a year that nearly the entire team was having an off year and was directed by two horrible coaches apparently

Yet you say that is the ceiling
Were they really having an off year? I'd say outside of Gaudreau most players were about their average.
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Old 04-13-2020, 04:23 PM   #152
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Were they really having an off year? I'd say outside of Gaudreau most players were about their average.
Monahan was #### but that's because he relies so heavily on gaudreau imo. Hanifin was pretty bad too. Everyone else was pretty average/expected. Which was my point. Cant expect career years each season which is why last year was an outlier.
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