Ethiopian Max 8 crashes, Canadians on board

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by FLAME ENVY

Regardless of the final findings from both MAX crashes, pilot experience/training are most surely to be mentioned alongside the other factual information found.

I wonder if you'll ever lay blame to Boeing. At all

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Firebot

The captain had over 8000 hours of flight experience. It wasn't until recently that the hour requirements changed in the US, heck less than a decade, where 200 for a FO would have been fine. You likely flew with a copilot with similar experience multiple times in your life without knowing.

https://thepointsguy.com/news/how-mu...o-pilots-need/

Let's not pretend that training is the problem here. Training hours was quick to be grasped at, to again try to point the finger at 3rd world regulations, when those types of hours for a pilot were fine in the past in the US and Canada, and fine in Europe

Lufthansa, such a bad airline.

There is no way US airlines are hiring pilots with 200 hours of experience, or have done in the past. The problem is, as pointed out by my brother who is a pilot, is that they have very little experience handling an airplane manually. They probably couldn't do a coordinated turn if their life depended on it. The other issue is that yes, the pilot had 8000 hours, but even then you wouldn't likely have that pilot training a newb on first world airlines.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by nik-

I think some of the defending in this thread has been odd to be honest. It's two planes in 4 months, on a platform rolled out with the stated advantage of not requiring extra training when training was clearly needed. Why are people still trying to point to pilots? Even if the pilot did have low hours, the plane is clearly doing something erroneous and fatally dangerous. Is the lack of experience really going to change their ability to handle something newly implemented, and not properly communicated, at a critical point in the flight with extremely limited window to resolve this unknown issue?

Add to that, if that last report turns out to be true, that's pretty damning.

I think Boeing is absolutely at fault here for the system design and the lack of training to save cash. I hope they pay for that one. That being said, when something fails on an aircraft, it is the pilot's job to know exactly what to do. Because mechanical and electrical things fail all the time.



I don't even blame the pilots, I blame the airline(and govt. agencies) for allowing it. Call that ridiculous, but I believe that a pilot second in command, last line of defence in charge of that many lives should have more than 200 hours. What if the first pilot had a medical issue, on any normal flight? I just think that is far to risky. Also, had their been 2 more experienced pilots, that's twice the chance one of them will figure it out.

[nik-]

I'm just not quite sure what more hours does when it's a brand new system that you're not informed of. 1000 hours or 200 hours, if I don't know this thing is even there and it's pitching me down at 450 feet ... what's the difference?

[Bigtime]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

is that they have very little experience handling an airplane manually. They probably couldn't do a coordinated turn if their life depended on it.

Hey now, I was busting out beautifully coordinated turns at 20 hours.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by nik-

I'm just not quite sure what more hours does when it's a brand new system that you're not informed of. 1000 hours or 200 hours, if I don't know this thing is even there and it's pitching me down at 450 feet ... what's the difference?

Because the solution for runaway trim on a 737 is to disengage the trim switches. It shouldn't matter much that this is a new model that has a fancy program running in the background. So the question becomes, how many hours do you need to recognize it is a runaway trim issue, and do you remember what to do? I had read that it is a fairly rare issue on the 737, and one pilot had mentioned it only comes up in the sim every other time, which I think they have to do once a year? So most pilots should have experienced it at least once in the sim.


As to hours Canadian pilots need, from Air Canada...

From there, most will “pay their dues” by working at smaller airlines, often in Northern Canada. Some pilots will also pursue flight instructor ratings. After logging a minimum of 1500 flight hours, a Commercial Pilot can apply for the Airline Transport Pilot’s License (ATPL), which qualifies them to fly at the airline level. Many pilots will then progress to regional airline jobs before applying to a major airline.

https://acpa.ca/pilot-life/pilot-training.aspx


So no, they aren't hiring pilots with 200 hours of experience. That's nonsense. You learn to fly on small planes for hundreds of hours, and that's how you learn to handle an aircraft. Back when my brother was learning, there was no way you could get on at an airline with less than 5000 hours, though now with pilot shortages it is a lot lower.

[nik-]

The fancy new program in the background shouldn't matter?

The fancy program in the background is the crux of this entire thing. What are you talking about? lol

[Fuzz]

I just meant it shouldn't matter as to what the pilot should do if there is runaway trim. In this case MCAS caused it, but it could be caused by something else. The cause shouldn't mater to the pilot, all he sees is runaway trim and should disengage the trim motor.

[Resolute 14]

Yeah.... I really don't know what you are getting at here Fuzz. It's pretty obvious at this point that MCAS is the major culprit. Focusing on the co-pilot like this is a little like blaming Tobias Reider for the Oilers's failures. Especially if the current reports that the crew of said plain followed Boeing's own guidance and the software still overruled them anyway.

[Red]

Fuzz's brother is just like every guy that "is better" than his peer.

Take ur car to a mechanic and they will tell you the previous guy was an idiot.
Plumber in the house will tell u the previous guy was an idiot.
Crash on deerfoot? Just a bunch of idiots that dont know how to drive. I would never crash like this.

And on and on...

Boeing messed up. Stop disrespecting people you never met or know very little about. Just not cool.

[Fuzz]

I'm just saying that yes, I think Boeing's mistakes are the problem, but this situation has also brought to light that more experience, and better training may have helped them save the plane. I don't know about you, but when something goes wrong on an airplane, I'd feel a lot better knowing the people in the cockpit had been at it longer than 200 hours. Expecting a plane to function 100% perfectly all the time is not realistic. Things break. The pilot is supposed to manage those things. A pilot with more experience should be better at it. That's my train of thought here.

[Bigtime]

I think the real crucial thing to find out here is if flipping the trim disconnect switches did not prevent the MCAS system from operating the stabilizer trim. That's a rather scary thought.

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by Red

Fuzz's brother is just like every guy that "is better" than his peer.

Take ur car to a mechanic and they will tell you the previous guy was an idiot.
Plumber in the house will tell u the previous guy was an idiot.
Crash on deerfoot? Just a bunch of idiots that dont know how to drive. I would never crash like this.

And on and on...

Boeing messed up. Stop disrespecting people you never met or know very little about. Just not cool.

A crash on deerfoot is definitely more likely to be caused by a driver error, or a failure in maintenance than a manufacturer failure. When I see a Toyota with a wrecked front end, I usually don't think "those darn Toyotas again."

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I'm just saying that yes, I think Boeing's mistakes are the problem, but this situation has also brought to light that more experience, and better training may have helped them save the plane. I don't know about you, but when something goes wrong on an airplane, I'd feel a lot better knowing the people in the cockpit had been at it longer than 200 hours. Expecting a plane to function 100% perfectly all the time is not realistic. Things break. The pilot is supposed to manage those things. A pilot with more experience should be better at it. That's my train of thought here.

Well this is absolutely true, but it comes back to Boeing acting like effectively no new training was required in order to make easy sales to airlines with a 737 fleet.

Now though, if this latest report is true, it looks like much much more than just training.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Red

Fuzz's brother is just like every guy that "is better" than his peer.

Take ur car to a mechanic and they will tell you the previous guy was an idiot.
Plumber in the house will tell u the previous guy was an idiot.
Crash on deerfoot? Just a bunch of idiots that dont know how to drive. I would never crash like this.

And on and on...

Boeing messed up. Stop disrespecting people you never met or know very little about. Just not cool.

I'm not disrespecting anyone. I'm saying that perhaps 200 hours is to few to be able to handle a complex aircraft with many lives at stake. Am I not being clear here? Do you feel that's enough?



And my brother wasn't bashing anyone, he merely stated a fact that these countries choose to allow pilots that haven't had much stick time to learn on large airplanes.

[Red]

You keep bringing up the pilots and "these" countries. It's clear what you and your brother are insinuating.

[FLAME ENVY]

Originally Posted by Red

You keep bringing up the pilots and "these" countries. It's clear what you and your brother are insinuating.

Insinuating what? That pilot training standards in Africa/Indonesia (and elsewhere) are typically not up to the same standards as NA/Europe/Australia/NZ? That is factual, not some silly 'insinuation' as you are making it out to be. Most African countries still don't follow ICAO standards in 2019!

[calumniate]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I'm just saying that yes, I think Boeing's mistakes are the problem, but this situation has also brought to light that more experience, and better training may have helped them save the plane. I don't know about you, but when something goes wrong on an airplane, I'd feel a lot better knowing the people in the cockpit had been at it longer than 200 hours. Expecting a plane to function 100% perfectly all the time is not realistic. Things break. The pilot is supposed to manage those things. A pilot with more experience should be better at it. That's my train of thought here.

Right, but 'more / better training' is a broad stroke. If you separate real in-flight hours from the training time allocated to what was new with the planes (MCAS), I think the finger pointing narrows down pretty quickly. They may or may not have had lots of in flight hours.. based on reports they almost certainly lacked training on MCAS

[Red]

Originally Posted by FLAME ENVY

Insinuating what? That pilot training standards in Africa/Indonesia (and elsewhere) are typically not up to the same standards as NA/Europe/Australia/NZ? That is factual, not some silly 'insinuation' as you are making it out to be. Most African countries still don't follow ICAO standards in 2019!

Read his earlier posts. He said the system was very simple and it looked like pilot error from the beginning. He keeps bringing it up.
Would you blame a young driver for crashing a car that lost its steering wheel?

[FLAME ENVY]

Originally Posted by Red

Read his earlier posts. He said the system was very simple and it looked like pilot error from the beginning. He keeps bringing it up.
Would you blame a young driver for crashing a car that lost its steering wheel?

Seriously - Your continued correlation to this aircraft crash and automobiles is ridiculous and non-sensical.