63 Canadians killed after civilian airliner shot down.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by flylock shox

I don't imagine there's a single poster on this board who is working with their own personal knowledge or memory of the Vincennes incident, and who is not simply relying on stuff they're finding online. From what I can see, and as I referenced earlier in this thread, it seems the general consensus among online sources is that the US response to the Vincennes incident was entirely unsatisfactory, at least initially.

Here's a bit from Slate generated after Russia shot down the Malaysian airlines plane:



Iran's initial response, much like that of the US 30 years ago, is understandable. The protests that have taken place in Iran after its admission of fault show the type of considerations the regime likely has to balance in handling incidents like this.

No one is supporting the US in the Vincennes incident. However, anyone who is stating that it's totally equivalent to the current incident in Iran is purposely being obtuse.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by blankall

The flight was going to Dubai, so the airliner was never supposed to reach full altitude. It was to climb to 14,000 feet, cruise, and then begin descent. So it was the normal flight from Tehran to Dubai, but climbed much lower than most commercial flights would (31-38,000 feet). It did not help that the Iranian government was using the airport that 655 came out of as a military airport as well, and launched both commercial and military aircraft from the same site.

That's what I'm saying..
The altitude was normal for that short flight path on that route. It didn't deviate from that.
14000ft was full altitude for that particular flight path. It was nothing extraordinary.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by blankall

No one is supporting the US in the Vincennes incident. However, anyone who is stating that it's totally equivalent to the current incident in Iran is purposely being obtuse.

I am not sure what you mean by totally equivalent, but in both cases an airliner was shot down and the respective Governments initially tried to deny they had screwed up, all I was trying to point out was that it was wholly believable, and beyond that most likely that, as in the Vincennes, the Iranians had shot the airliner down by mistake, mostly because the Iranians, like the US before, had nothing to gain by shooting down an airliner.

Beyond that there was a lot of indignation that Iran took a day longer to fess up than the americans, personally I suspect either side would have covered it up if they could.

[nik-]

and bulldozed the site

and arrested people who released videos.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by nik-

and bulldozed the site

and arrested people who released videos.

they do all kinds of ####ty things, I wasn't argueing moral equivalency between the US and Iran, just that they shot the plane down by accident

[nik-]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

they do all kinds of ####ty things, I wasn't argueing moral equivalency between the US and Iran, just that they shot the plane down by accident

Actually you were doing this.

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Beyond that there was a lot of indignation that Iran took a day longer to fess up than the americans

Which is false, and there was a lot of other reasons tied into the discussion here, and I think you know that. So why are you doing this? We all get it. The US shot down an Iranian airliner and initially denied it. It's ####ty.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by nik-

Actually you were doing this.



Which is false, and there was a lot of other reasons tied into the discussion here, and I think you know that. So why are you doing this? We all get it. The US shot down an Iranian airliner and initially denied it. It's ####ty.

Yes, that's my point, all countries at times do ####ty things, it doesn't make them totally evil, by painting Iran as an evil regime it makes any stupid thing done against them ok.

By painting Iran as evil it excuses all kinds of dumb arse actions which will make things worse, in just the same way as if you just assume the US is always good it also excuses all kinds of bad things, in truth like everything else in the world there are shades of grey.

To be clear I am not a fan of the Iranian regime, but I find our ally Saudi Arabia even worse

[nik-]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Yes, that's my point, all countries at times do ####ty things, it doesn't make them totally evil, by painting Iran as an evil regime it makes any stupid thing done against them ok.

By painting Iran as evil it excuses all kinds of dumb arse actions which will make things worse, in just the same way as if you just assume the US is always good it also excuses all kinds of bad things, in truth like everything else in the world there are shades of grey.

To be clear I am not a fan of the Iranian regime, but I find our ally Saudi Arabia even worse

Ok now you're just straight up being dishonest. It's clear that's not my position, you just have a hard time understanding positions that aren't black and white. Stop weaseling this stuff into posts.

[afc wimbledon]

in just the same way as if you just assume the US is always good

[flylock shox]

Originally Posted by blankall

No one is supporting the US in the Vincennes incident. However, anyone who is stating that it's totally equivalent to the current incident in Iran is purposely being obtuse.

Actually I think you'll find that, if you harken back to roughly posts 160-171 in this thread, you'll see an exchange I had with Peter12 where he does appear to explicitly support the US response to Vincennes, presumably on the understanding the US immediately took responsibility and apologized (which, based on sources I've researched including a Wapo article I quoted, the US did not).

The argument therefore has been made on this basis that the two incidents are not equivalent which, at least in the early stages, they appear to have been. Interestingly, Rouhani's admission and expression of remorse - which came 3 days after the incident and followed initial denials and misrepresentations - notably did not include an express apology, which again seems directly equivalent to the US approach.

If Iran either issues a formal apology or, within the next 8 years, pays compensation to the families of the victims, the argument could be made that their response to this tragedy has actually been better than the US response to the Vincennes incident.

All that to say there's a fair debate to be had around the equivalency of the two situations, and judgment will have to await the second response fully playing out.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

in just the same way as if you just assume the US is always good

!!

Apologies, missed those two critical letters.

[GirlySports]

Families of victims are getting compensation? That's pretty crazy.

Did the Humboldt families get any federal compensation?

[Fire]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Families of victims are getting compensation? That's pretty crazy.

Did the Humboldt families get any federal compensation?

They got a significantly more from donations, but you do have a point. The government is kind of setting a standard. If a Canadian dies out of country due to an accident then the families should all receive $25000 from the government.

[SebC]

I assume the idea behind this compensation is that it's being provided as an advance on or in lieu of a settlement from Iran. If a victim of negligence's family can be effectively compensated through a traditional lawsuit, then similar aid is not required.

[Fire]

Originally Posted by SebC

I assume the idea behind this compensation is that it's being provided as an advance on or in lieu of a settlement from Iran. If a victim of negligence's family can be effectively compensated through a traditional lawsuit, then similar aid is not required.

The government said any compensation from Iran would be going to the families and not to pay back the government.

[BlackArcher101]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Families of victims are getting compensation? That's pretty crazy.

Did the Humboldt families get any federal compensation?

How can you even remotely compare that to Humboldt. Once involves an international incident mired in politics, the other doesn't. One occurred far outside of the country which has large expense, one did not. One has no direct recourse for families, one does.

Another great whataboutism.

[Red Potato Standing By]

Nope sorry you are not allowed to help anyone unless you help the homeless first,the vets first, the pensioners first, or at least that is what Facebook tells me.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Families of victims are getting compensation? That's pretty crazy.

Did the Humboldt families get any federal compensation?

Be a better person than this please.

[MoneyGuy]

Originally Posted by Red Potato Standing By

Nope sorry you are not allowed to help anyone unless you help the homeless first,the vets first, the pensioners first, or at least that is what Facebook tells me.

I have a couple of friends who post the one about pensioners and I detest it.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by MoneyGuy

I have a couple of friends who post the one about pensioners and I detest it.

I dislike every time someone posts the Vet one.