05-07-2019, 09:47 AM
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#121
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Calgary, AB
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Yeah Holland is not a "bad" GM at all - it's just that he hasn't been good recently which can cause some concerns.
A big plus for him is that he seems to do well in trades still - which is a huge improvement over Chiarelli. https://www.capfriendly.com/staff/ken-holland/trades
Historically he drafted well but that has not been as strong over the last couple years - although you could argue that Larkin & Mantha are both great picks where they were selected in the draft http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/t...r00005492.html
The biggest concern for Oilers fans would have to be the cap management in Detroit - since that's an area where the Oilers are already in trouble.
Nielsen, Abdelkader, Helm, Dekeyser, Ericsson, Daley, & Franzen all look like bad contracts that were too long and too expensive for guys that were role players or on the back end of their career.
He's an improvement on Chiarelli for sure - but his contract management has to be a big concern for that fan base.
Last edited by SuperMatt18; 05-07-2019 at 09:50 AM.
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05-07-2019, 09:48 AM
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#122
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Income Tax Central
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Quote:
Originally Posted by getbak
He's not saying that Holland is actually a trust fund baby. He's comparing taking over the Red Wings in 1997 to being the hockey equivalent of a trust fund baby.
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He actually makes a good point, Holland took over a great team with no financial constraints in a pre-cap era along with some scouts who were killing it in Russia and Sweden.
The Detroit organization innovated, but when the rest of the league caught up they couldnt change it up and stay ahead.
So I guess we have to see where Holland is on that spectrum, but I'd wager and I dont mean to stereotype here, but 62 year olds are not notorious for their innovation skills.
__________________
The Beatings Shall Continue Until Morale Improves!
This Post Has Been Distilled for the Eradication of Seemingly Incurable Sadness.
If you are flammable and have legs, you are never blocking a Fire Exit. - Mitch Hedberg
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05-07-2019, 09:49 AM
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#123
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Fernando Valley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by transplant99
Holland took over as GM in 97...previous to that he was assistant GM for 3 years....and prior to that he was their Director of Scouting for 7 years after being a scout himself for a few years.
So where do you think all this stuff he ISNT getting credit for came from?
Holland was right there for all of it along with Jimmy Devalano, and in particular the scouting aspect of it was way more on Holland than anyone else. Devalano and he were a team and Holland was groomed to take over.
He is a slam dunk HOF guy who, as sports tends to, has seen his team go through a cycle from up to down...it happens to all great teams.
So because he has had a bad few years recently, what he did for 25+ years is tossed away and he is deemed as a poor GM?
Again, its an absurd and ill thought out take. Regardless of what happens in Edmonton (and lets call a spade a spade here, NO one will be able to turn that around anytime soon) he has been one of the better GM's this league has ever had.
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Unless I've missed something I don't think anyone here is saying he was a bad GM or a fraud. That one Detroit guy's take was a little extreme but it's not the first time I have read that as there was an athletic article saying similar in that he was part of an organization that was ahead of the curve in regards to scouting and drafting European talent and they rode that to success in an era where big markets could buy rosters. Pioneering European scouting alone is worth praise as are the Stanley Cup victories but but since the playing field got leveled many teams have surpassed the Wings doing business in the new NHL simply better. Not sure how you can argue that and he has to work in the same constraints in Edmonton that he couldn't get to work in Detroit.
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05-07-2019, 09:50 AM
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#124
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Income Tax Central
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMatt18
Yeah Holland is not a "bad" GM at all - it's just that he hasn't been good recently which can cause some concerns.
A big plus for him is that he seems to do well in trades - which is a huge improvement over Chiarelli. https://www.capfriendly.com/staff/ken-holland/trades
Historically he drafted well but that has not been as strong over the last couple years - although you could argue that Larkin & Mantha are both great picks where they were selected in the draft http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/t...r00005492.html
The biggest concern for Oilers fans would have to be the cap management in Detroit - since that's an area where the Oilers are already in trouble.
Nielsen, Abdelkader, Helm, Dekeyser, Ericsson, Daley, & Franzen all look like bad contracts that were too long and too expensive for guys that were role players or on the back end of their career.
He's an improvement on Chiarelli for sure - but his contract management has to be a big concern for that fan base. |
He has a track history and 'cred.' People will be willing to deal with him.
But 'being willing to deal with him' is not nearly the same thing as 'being willing to do him favours.'
__________________
The Beatings Shall Continue Until Morale Improves!
This Post Has Been Distilled for the Eradication of Seemingly Incurable Sadness.
If you are flammable and have legs, you are never blocking a Fire Exit. - Mitch Hedberg
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05-07-2019, 09:56 AM
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#125
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Owner
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Calgary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMatt18
Yeah Holland is not a "bad" GM at all - it's just that he hasn't been good recently which can cause some concerns.
A big plus for him is that he seems to do well in trades still - which is a huge improvement over Chiarelli. https://www.capfriendly.com/staff/ken-holland/trades |
Not a lot of impact moves in there though.
He's certainly not getting Chiarelli'd which is a good start, but he's also not a big risk taker by the looks of it.
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05-07-2019, 10:06 AM
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#126
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Franchise Player
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What in the hell happened to Katz?
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05-07-2019, 10:08 AM
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#127
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Scoring Winger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weitz
What in the hell happened to Katz?
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HaHa, I had to go look at pictures of him before to make sure I was seeing what I was seeing
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05-07-2019, 10:09 AM
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#128
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gordo67
HaHa, I had to go look at pictures of him before to make sure I was seeing what I was seeing
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Even Micheal Jackson is asking what happened to his nose.
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05-07-2019, 10:09 AM
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#129
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Crash and Bang Winger
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Calgary
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What a painful press conference, E = NG.
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05-07-2019, 10:18 AM
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#130
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Some kinda newsbreaker!
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Learning Phaneufs skating style
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05-07-2019, 10:18 AM
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#131
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Franchise Player
Join Date: May 2016
Location: ATCO Field, Section 201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bingo
Not a lot of impact moves in there though.
He's certainly not getting Chiarelli'd which is a good start, but he's also not a big risk taker by the looks of it.
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Detroit's roster is clearly needs youth, but Holland didn't cripple the Red Wings as they transition. This summer they have two old players coming off the books in the form of Vanek and Kronwall. This will give them the better part of 12 M in cap space with no pressing signings. This is coupled with three 2nd round picks.
I have to admit, this is not a bad starting point for the future. The thing is, this took a while to develop, it was an awful slow rebuild for a team that was clearly in need of things to be torn down. I wonder how receptive Oiler fans will be to a slow and steady approach.
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05-07-2019, 10:20 AM
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#132
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Franchise Player
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"I like to think we're talking about playoffs in 2019/2020."
"There's a great core. I have to build around that core."
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05-07-2019, 10:20 AM
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#133
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Chicago
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMatt18
Yeah Holland is not a "bad" GM at all - it's just that he hasn't been good recently which can cause some concerns.
A big plus for him is that he seems to do well in trades still - which is a huge improvement over Chiarelli. https://www.capfriendly.com/staff/ken-holland/trades
Historically he drafted well but that has not been as strong over the last couple years - although you could argue that Larkin & Mantha are both great picks where they were selected in the draft http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/t...r00005492.html
The biggest concern for Oilers fans would have to be the cap management in Detroit - since that's an area where the Oilers are already in trouble.
Nielsen, Abdelkader, Helm, Dekeyser, Ericsson, Daley, & Franzen all look like bad contracts that were too long and too expensive for guys that were role players or on the back end of their career.
He's an improvement on Chiarelli for sure - but his contract management has to be a big concern for that fan base. |
This is the part I find particularly strange about the choice of Holland. The Wings have the highest payroll in the league and have not hit 80 points in any of last 3 seasons.
Not sure the thought process that suggests this is the guy to bring the Oilers successfully out of their own cap hell
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05-07-2019, 10:22 AM
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#134
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Pent-up
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Plutanamo Bay.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashasx
"I like to think we're talking about playoffs in 2019/2020."
"There's a great core. I have to build around that core."
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The oilers ‘core’ is looser than Keith Tkachucks.
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05-07-2019, 10:29 AM
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#135
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Some kinda newsbreaker!
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Learning Phaneufs skating style
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Holland says he wants to keep K. Gretzky in the org.
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05-07-2019, 10:32 AM
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#136
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Maple Bay, B.C.
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05-07-2019, 10:33 AM
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#137
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Flames Town
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sureLoss
Holland says he wants to keep K. Gretzky in the org.
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Of course he does.. they will never get rid of anyone.
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05-07-2019, 10:33 AM
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#138
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All I can get
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Holy crap, what a tire fire.
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05-07-2019, 10:34 AM
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#139
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Income Tax Central
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sureLoss
Holland says he wants to keep K. Gretzky in the org.
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Of course he does.
And so the OBC begins...
__________________
The Beatings Shall Continue Until Morale Improves!
This Post Has Been Distilled for the Eradication of Seemingly Incurable Sadness.
If you are flammable and have legs, you are never blocking a Fire Exit. - Mitch Hedberg
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05-07-2019, 10:34 AM
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#140
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bingo
Not a lot of impact moves in there though.
He's certainly not getting Chiarelli'd which is a good start, but he's also not a big risk taker by the looks of it.
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There's nothing wrong with not taking risks in the trade market. You never see people getting fired for trades they didn't make.
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