Hard to see any positives on this deal for the Flames. Head scratcher. If you want to just get rid of James Neal, than do it and bring in some young brute to patrol the wings on a minimum salary. I don't buy the argument that there wasn't a deal out there for Neal whereby the Flames pretty much just give away a perennial 20 goal scorer for a pick or two.
Concerning that his worst NHL year was here. Its easy to blame it all on him, but that is unlikely to be the whole story.
By your crazy logic the Leafs should have received a top 10 draft pick for Patrick Marleau instead of paying a 1st to get rid of him one year early...
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They are both crap. Suggesting one is better than the other is like suggesting one terminal disease is better than the next. They are both bad and not a player or salary you want your hockey team to be saddled. This deal is brutal I’m the Flames are still saddled with a grossly over-paid and massively under-performing player. It’s a deal with no upside for the Flames.
Owners saved 10 million dollars. Cap hit went down. Neal was beyond awful. Paying Lucic is cheaper than buying out Neal.
No offense but I didn't read your last post as I've had my fill of reading fans trying really, really, hard to make the best of this. I heard the 960 guys try to put a positive spin on it today as well as Kent Wilson's story at the Athletic. That's fine and all but I firmly remain a skeptic that this works out for the Flames and I'm entitled to that opinion.
Yeah, it would have taken you less time than it did to type this reply. Lol
Lots of mental gymnastics going on in this thread. It will be interesting to see how this thread ages when we get into the season. I can't be the only person that watched Oilers games last season. I recall plenty of times laughing at my TV watching him struggle to make the simplest of passes. I know others saw how bad he was because I frequent the Oilers are No Good thread. I'm highly skeptical that by next season's end opinions will be the same as they are today.
But are you really seeing much?
People saying Lucic will turn it around?
People saying Calgary won this trade hands down?
This will age fine.
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They are both crap. Suggesting one is better than the other is like suggesting one terminal disease is better than the next. They are both bad and not a player or salary you want your hockey team to be saddled. This deal is brutal I’m the Flames are still saddled with a grossly over-paid and massively under-performing player. It’s a deal with no upside for the Flames.
True, both are bad, IMO one is slightly less bad than the other. Either way we were going to be saddled with a grossly over-paid under-performing player, may as well go with the guy that actually does something positive while he is out on the ice.
Owners saved 10 million dollars. Cap hit went down. Neal was beyond awful. Paying Lucic is cheaper than buying out Neal.
So, you know, there’s that.
How did the owners save $10M dollars?
Cap hit went down $500k. Depends what they do with that money before it’s a good move. If they turn that $500k into a $3M salary for Sam Bennett, that savings is irrelevant and contributes to another bad deal. The $500k needs to be turned into something of value.
Neal was awful last season, no doubt. So was Lucic. All the fancy stats in the world will not hide the fact that Lucic was one of the worst contracts in the league and it is unlikely that is going to change. In fact, for the Flames to get back a 3rd round pick, they need Neal to outperform Lucic by a good margin and be a successful player for the Oilers. Treliving just made a bet that Neal will be a better player than the one he just got, and that the Oilers will be a better team. That is the part that really was the kicker in this mess. The upside for the Flames just doesn’t seem to be there where this deal can work out.
Cap hit went down $500k. Depends what they do with that money before it’s a good move. If they turn that $500k into a $3M salary for Sam Bennett, that savings is irrelevant and contributes to another bad deal. The $500k needs to be turned into something of value.
Neal was awful last season, no doubt. So was Lucic. All the fancy stats in the world will not hide the fact that Lucic was one of the worst contracts in the league and it is unlikely that is going to change. In fact, for the Flames to get back a 3rd round pick, they need Neal to outperform Lucic by a good margin and be a successful player for the Oilers. Treliving just made a bet that Neal will be a better player than the one he just got, and that the Oilers will be a better team. That is the part that really was the kicker in this mess. The upside for the Flames just doesn’t seem to be there where this deal can work out.
Because Lucic makes 7 million less then Neal over the next 4 years .....
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Cap hit went down $500k. Depends what they do with that money before it’s a good move. If they turn that $500k into a $3M salary for Sam Bennett, that savings is irrelevant and contributes to another bad deal. The $500k needs to be turned into something of value.
Neal was awful last season, no doubt. So was Lucic. All the fancy stats in the world will not hide the fact that Lucic was one of the worst contracts in the league and it is unlikely that is going to change. In fact, for the Flames to get back a 3rd round pick, they need Neal to outperform Lucic by a good margin and be a successful player for the Oilers. Treliving just made a bet that Neal will be a better player than the one he just got, and that the Oilers will be a better team. That is the part that really was the kicker in this mess. The upside for the Flames just doesn’t seem to be there where this deal can work out.
Cost of Lucic to Flames: 13 million (real dollars, not cap hit)
Cost of Neal’s remaining 4 years: 23 million (real dollars and cap hit)
Lots of mental gymnastics going on in this thread. It will be interesting to see how this thread ages when we get into the season. I can't be the only person that watched Oilers games last season. I recall plenty of times laughing at my TV watching him struggle to make the simplest of passes. I know others saw how bad he was because I frequent the Oilers are No Good thread. I'm highly skeptical that by next season's end opinions will be the same as they are today.
You aren't. We all saw Lucic play.
My question for you is: did you watch the Flames play last season? No mental gymnastics are required in order to see that this is a crap for crap swap.
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Lots of mental gymnastics going on in this thread. It will be interesting to see how this thread ages when we get into the season. I can't be the only person that watched Oilers games last season. I recall plenty of times laughing at my TV watching him struggle to make the simplest of passes. I know others saw how bad he was because I frequent the Oilers are No Good thread. I'm highly skeptical that by next season's end opinions will be the same as they are today.
Brouwer in his 2nd year with the Flames was better than Neal. Lucic was certainly bad and laughed at for proper reasons, but people were seeing Neal with rose coloured glasses because of his past, despite being months in with poor performance. Neal was a total black hole that was covered up by a team playing extremely well that got himself healthy scratched by the playoffs.
The only mental gymnastics is those still excusing Neal as anything but a bad version of Brouwer, that we managed to get rid of for a bad contract who at least has some backbone and will play physical no matter how slow he is. The excuses continued for Neal even through the playoffs. One of these 2 bad players have a role they can still play, and that player is not Neal.
Quote:
I still believe Neal is saving his best for the playoffs
Your post from December (wasn't looking for it, found while searching for playoff comments)
Quote:
Neal has been pretty bad of late but he's not going anywhere and the team is playing as well as it has in decades so as of now I really don't feel the need to obsess over his play because it's worrying about something that's out of anyone's control. No team is going to take him off the Flames hands right now so we just have to accept that he's a long term fixture for the foreseeable future.
The fixation on Neal here seems to be a typical internet thing these days as I see this same behavior on other fan sites I frequent. A lot of fans need to have a whipping boy. Regardless of how the team fares some fans need something to be unhappy about. Someone that they can vent on.
A team did take him, we have Lucic now for better or worse.
Quote:
Did you watch the playoffs last season?
He knows when it actually matters...guy has been to the finals two years in a row. It wouldn't be all that shocking if he is saving putting his body on the line for when it really matters. Its not like the Flames are in a playoff race, they have clinched in February
Everyone hoped that Neal would shift a gear come playoffs, instead he litteraly got stuck in neutral...
Cue controller disconnect gif, and this play was the last time Neal ever wore the Flames jersey.
Cost of Lucic to Flames: 13 million (real dollars, not cap hit)
Cost of Neal’s remaining 4 years: 23 million (real dollars and cap hit)
Even buying out Neal would be 15.3 M.
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Missed that post. Thanks for the information. That does help soften the blow and makes sense from a money and business perspective. I still don’t see the upside from a hockey perspective. I’m not sure the team is better. Unless Neal was such a huge distraction in the dressing room I struggle to see how this makes the team better. I’m looking forward to seeing how the team gels this fall, but right now I have concerns they have not improved their lot in any significant way.
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Missed that post. Thanks for the information. That does help soften the blow and makes sense from a money and business perspective. I still don’t see the upside from a hockey perspective. I’m not sure the team is better. Unless Neal was such a huge distraction in the dressing room I struggle to see how this makes the team better. I’m looking forward to seeing how the team gels this fall, but right now I have concerns they have not improved their lot in any significant way.
I am using Neal’s performance last year as the basis for evaluating Lucic.
I think we need to take time to reflect on how truly awful Neal was.
I also do truly think that linemates and situation will put Lucic in a position to improve on last year. How much, we will see, but I think it will be material.
By your crazy logic the Leafs should have received a top 10 draft pick for Patrick Marleau instead of paying a 1st to get rid of him one year early...
Not sure what is crazy about giving Neal another season to prove his worth before taking garbage off the oilers hands. There had to be a better deal here somewhere.
Most likely Neal forced this somehow but I don’t have a clue how that came to be. Clearly he told the flames he was not playing for them again after being sat by peters in the playoffs.
No matter how you shake it this is poor asset management and treliving wears this. And to let your arch rival dump their albatross contract on you? Now that is crazy
Not sure what is crazy about giving Neal another season to prove his worth before taking garbage off the oilers hands. There had to be a better deal here somewhere.
Most likely Neal forced this somehow but I don’t have a clue how that came to be. Clearly he told the flames he was not playing for them again after being sat by peters in the playoffs.
No matter how you shake it this is poor asset management and treliving wears this. And to let your arch rival dump their albatross contract on you? Now that is crazy
Neal was not only garbage here, he was a player the Flames no longer wanted around.
How is this poor asset management? We signed Neal (UFA - so "free" asset), and we then traded him 1 year later for Lucic while having the Oilers retain 12.5% of his salary.
How are you judging Lucic to be an awful contract and not evaluating Neal in the exact same manner? How can you make the assumption there had to be a better deal to be had? You have literally no way of knowing that.
As I have read more about this I am starting to think Tre made it so there is no real downside for the Flames. Nobody wins the trade, but I don't think the Flames can "lose".
- Most of what I have read suggest Lucic has made a more positive impact the last few years then Neal.
-Lucic is a better fit
But what if Neal gets better?!
Neal couldn't keep up with our top (or bottom) six. How is he going to be less of a drag on McDavid?
BUT THE BUYOUT!!!!
In a worst case scenario both players get bought out next year. Because of the Oilers picking up some of Lucic's salary, the net effect is $14.5mm in cap hit for the Flames vs $13.6 for the Oilers. The Oilers hit may be flatter, but that may hurt them more if they are on track to exit their 7th rebuild in 3-4 years, and maybe this one will take.
Worst case the flames are down $1mm, best case they are up $2mm. Sure it might go against the Flames, but odds are it won't really.
I don't buy the argument there had to be a better deal. I am confident Tre took the best deal. I have never heard of a team giving their rival a discount. You might value picks vs cap vs the players name differently then the Flames. But I am certain they have a better understanding of what was on the table.
Based on the Marleau cap dump, the going rate for moving ~$6mm are 1st and 7th round picks. Presumibly term is more expensive, but perhaps Tre valued the Flames next 4 years of picks higher then $5.25/yr in cap penalty (and its really only $4.25 since you would need to replace him even as the 13th skater.)
As time goes on, it should be easier/cheaper to move him then Neal, since he has less real cash owed.
The flames signed Neal because of value they saw in him. Why give up after just one season? Or is the player assessment group here really that bad at their job? We certainly didn’t compete with the oilers to sign that desperate contract for lucic a few years back. But now its ours.
Champions are built by people smarter than those who run the flames sadly. Only have to look down the hall and watch hufnagel in action to see how its done
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Not sure what is crazy about giving Neal another season to prove his worth before taking garbage off the oilers hands. There had to be a better deal here somewhere.
Most likely Neal forced this somehow but I don’t have a clue how that came to be. Clearly he told the flames he was not playing for them again after being sat by peters in the playoffs.
No matter how you shake it this is poor asset management and treliving wears this. And to let your arch rival dump their albatross contract on you? Now that is crazy
It is easy using hindsight but at the time I thought Neal was a perfect fit for the top line. I will admit I didn’t realize how good Lindholm was and you could quickly see that Neal did not fit with any other line combination. He would get several shifts a game with the top line after a PK and never generate anything.
Listening to the Treliving interview today it was crystal clear to me that they firmly believe Neal was not and would not be a fit here at any point.
This trade will look great for the Oilers for at least the next 2 months and we will see what they get when the season starts. If they get the same Neal we saw then this is a huge disaster for them as they will be in the hole $6.5M for at least a year and if they want to buy him out next summer that is 6 years of almost $2M in dead cap and for 3 years it is $2.65M thanks to the Lucic retention.
The flames signed Neal because of value they saw in him. Why give up after just one season? Or is the player assessment group here really that bad at their job? We certainly didn’t compete with the oilers to sign that desperate contract for lucic a few years back. But now its ours.
Champions are built by people smarter than those who run the flames sadly. Only have to look down the hall and watch hufnagel in action to see how its done
Give him another year?????? What a joke he was sat in the playoffs what makes you think peters is going to do anything for neal or that neal wanted anything with calgary after that?
He was an outcast in the locker room an outcast with the coach and had the worst metrics if anyone in the team including the rookies and had a bad attitude. He couldnt be traded unless an ugly contract came back and hes obviously not getting bought out so what exactly do you do that would he good assett management at this point?????
