Average Production By Position in The Lineup: Flames vs. NHL Average

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

We want the Corsi Cup!

I'm not even a big advanced stats guy, but 90% of the league plays the same way. So at some point, you just have to accept it. Every team wants to defend faster and every team wants to possess the puck more these days. It's very interesting to me that the fire Gulutzan crowd apparently don't even realize that 2 coaches that they're declaring for in Quenneville and Sutter, are even bigger corsi guys than Gulutzan.

So basically, if you didn't like Gulutzan's style, then you're in for a real treat because Sutter was the undisputed king of corsi when he was the head honcho of the Kings and Quenneville likes to get the corsi numbers during every intermission.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

I'm not even a big advanced stats guy, but 90% of the league plays the same way. So at some point, you just have to accept it. Every team wants to defend faster and every team wants to possess the puck more these days. It's very interesting to me that the fire Gulutzan crowd apparently don't even realize that 2 coaches that they're declaring for in Quenneville and Sutter, are even bigger corsi guys than Gulutzan.

So basically, if you didn't like Gulutzan's style, then you're in for a real treat because Sutter was the undisputed king of corsi when he was the head honcho of the Kings and Quenneville likes to get the corsi numbers during every intermission.

I'm sorry but this post is all kinds of wrong.

Even if you are a corsi fan, there are many different playing styles that encourage possession.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

If we're going to argue by anecdote, three of the top four teams in the NHL by that stat this season are outside the playoff picture.

That said, I disagree with Enoch Root - Corsi has some value. But it has two major problems: First, it is typically presented in a way that blinds it to a full third of the game (5v5 only), and second, too many people spent a few years trying to treat it as the One True Stat. That created a natural inclination to push back against it.

It's funny because a few years back I actually really disliked that Corsi crowd because it was consistent "this is the only way to look at games". I also find the "Stats suck, put down the laptop" guys just as annoying.

But now that the constant bickering between each side has calmed down a bit, and there is better access to a broader view of the advanced stats outside of just Corsi, I really find them helpful to look past some of the things I can miss from just watching games.

In terms of the 5V5 stuff I like using it but looking at all three separately and then overall. There is such a huge range in individual team performance at 5V5, PP, and PK that you can get some neat insights.

That is one thing I think all the advanced stats guys missed about the Flames 14/15 team. They had poor 5V5 advanced stats, and didn't have great special teams but the fact that they were top 10 in drawing PPs, and took the fewest penalties in the league made up for a huge win from that perspective. Even the worst 5v5 performance is better than the best PK.

Honestly the fact that we are the 4th most penalized team in the NHL the last two seasons is something that doesn't get talked about enough when talking about our struggles.

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

a) there is probably some room in the middle

b) you are data mining - sure, Pitt is there, so are other teams that don't support your narrative.

For sure - I'm not saying these stats are the end all be all. I more just use them as validation points for the eye test and even then a lot of time I think there are flaws.

I'm more just annoyed than anytime there is anything even remotely positive mentioned about the team right now everyone just jumps in with some sarcastic comment about GG or how much the team sucks.

[DJones]

Other teams wingers seem oddly low and their centers seems very high.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I'm sorry but this post is all kinds of wrong.

Even if you are a corsi fan, there are many different playing styles that encourage possession.

Actually it's not. The 90% stat that I mentioned is not something that I personally thought of, it was mentioned by an actual member of the organization. It's not even that surprising as players who get traded will sometimes say that it won't take that long to adjust because everyone plays the same system.

Honestly, put your money where your mouth is and explain the vastly different styles that encourage possession and then please tell me what makes Quenneville, Sutter and Gulutzan's styles so different from one another?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Actually it's not. The 90% stat that I mentioned is not something that I personally thought of, it was mentioned by an actual member of the organization. It's not even that surprising as players who get traded will sometimes say that it won't take that long to adjust because everyone plays the same system.

Honestly, put your money where your mouth is and explain the vastly different styles that encourage possession and then please tell me what makes Quenneville, Sutter and Gulutzan's styles so different from one another?

Such a classic, last resort retort. I have stated my opinions on coaching style countless times already.

You made the claims ("90% of teams play the same way" and "Quenneville and Sutter, are even bigger corsi guys than Gulutzan"), so how about you back those up.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Such a classic, last resort retort. I have stated my opinions on coaching style countless times already.

You made the claims ("90% of teams play the same way" and "Quenneville and Sutter, are even bigger corsi guys than Gulutzan"), so how about you back those up.

Yeah baloney. Apparently, if you think my post is so completely dead wrong, would only be right to hear why.

I won't divulge who said that because I really don't feel the need to humor you in this situation since you're unwilling to reciprocate. But legitimately, you don't even need a stat to realize the truth. There's only so much you can teach and coach when a game is mostly read and react. Watch any game on any given night and it all looks the same. Just look at how much parity there is and how many teams are separated by a few points.

[timbit]

Originally Posted by DJones

Other teams wingers seem oddly low and their centers seems very high.

Please let us know which teams plays their centers hign , in an DZ breakout or NZ regroup situation.

I’m not saying there are none but it’s very close to that.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Yeah baloney. Apparently, if you think my post is so completely dead wrong, would only be right to hear why.

I won't divulge who said that because I really don't feel the need to humor you in this situation since you're unwilling to reciprocate. But legitimately, you don't even need a stat to realize the truth. There's only so much you can teach and coach when a game is mostly read and react. Watch any game on any given night and it all looks the same. Just look at how much parity there is and how many teams are separated by a few points.

So you've got nothing.

[Madrox]

Originally Posted by timbit

Please let us know which teams plays their centers hign , in an DZ breakout or NZ regroup situation.

I’m not saying there are none but it’s very close to that.

He's referring to their point production, I think.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

So you've got nothing.

No, pretty sure it’s you that has said nothing.

[Resolute 14]

Honestly, Sniper, he's right. The concept of wanting to possess the puck more often than not isn't something newly discovered when Jim Corsi invented the stat named after him. That has been a self-evident part of the sport since the very first time the game was played.

All you have produced is a claim ("90% of teams play the same way"), and your only justification for it is an appeal to unnamed authority. That's as empty as it gets, regardless of the strength or weakness of your opponent's claims.

[Resolute 14]

At any rate, out of curiousity, I paid attention (for the first two periods, at any rate) to the quantity and nature of our shot attempts within the home plate area.

By my count, we had 16 such shot attempts at even strength in the first two periods. Only five, in my estimation, represented a challenging save for the goalie - three of which we scored on. The remaining 11 were blocked, missed the net or shot right into the chest or pads (i.e.: a positionally sound goalie would barely have to make an effort to stop the puck). One area where the lack of Tkachuk was greatly noticeable is the near complete lack of second chance shots because nobody was actually in front of the net to battle for any rebounds.