2017/2018 Trade Speculation and Rumors

[Nelson]

That’s not surprising. I’d still like Michael Stone traded for a 2nd/3rd/4th round pick, whatever the highest possible pick is, unless he can be traded for a Kapanen type.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Nelson

That’s not surprising. I’d still like Michael Stone traded for a 2nd/3rd/4th round pick, whatever the highest possible pick is, unless he can be traded for a Kapanen type.

"Whatever the highest possible pick is"? At some point he's worth more to the Flames than a trade for the sake of a trade.

[Hackey]

Ya I don't quite get the reasoning for trading Stone for a pick. If we needed the cap space sure but at this point he seems more valuable to us than a 2nd or 3rd rounder.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by the2bears

"Whatever the highest possible pick is"? At some point he's worth more to the Flames than a trade for the sake of a trade.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

IMO we overestimate this psychological stuff. But when it comes to that I think actual players respect seniority a lot more than fans. And they probably respect Brouwer's ring a fair bit too. And I don't think they look at salaries at all when thinking about ice time. And I don't think Bennett, for example, was jealous of Brouwer's (mainly) fourth line ice time, nor was Hathaway (who did far less than Brouwer with much better linemates).

Well Brouwer received PP time ahead of Bennett for part of the time they’ve both played together.

My friend served some of the Flames young forwards near the end of the season and he said based on the talk he heard that they don’t think too highly of Brouwer. That’s what I’ve heard on the matter.

Players are human. If most fans thought Brouwer was overused and overrated then you can bet your butt that some of the players did too. They had front row seats for Brouwer’s amazing past two seasons.

I think you overestimate Brouwer’s veteran status and how that affects his rep in the room. You gotta bring it on the ice to earn their respect. If GG had never played Brouwer on the PP this past couple years people might feel differently about him but he clearly was being fed those minutes because of his salary and not because of his offensive contributions.

[Nelson]

Originally Posted by the2bears

"Whatever the highest possible pick is"? At some point he's worth more to the Flames than a trade for the sake of a trade.

Michael Stone? Nope. I'd like to see him gone. I want Rasmus Andersson to have that 3 RH D position because I think it would be a great next opportunity for his development. I also very much dislike that contract. Michael Stone is also a struggling depth defenceman.

I understand you guys are saying we shouldn't trade Stone for "magic beans" because 2nd/3rd/4th round draft picks only have a chance of working out but it is still worth it to get more kicks at the can, especially because Stone is terrible, overpaid, and in the way of Andersson.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Nelson

Michael Stone? Nope. I'd like to see him gone. I want Rasmus Andersson to have that 3 RH D position because I think it would be a great next opportunity for his development. I also very much dislike that contract. Michael Stone is also a struggling depth defenceman.

I understand you guys are saying we shouldn't trade Stone for "magic beans" because 2nd/3rd/4th round draft picks only have a chance of working out but it is still worth it to get more kicks at the can, especially because Stone is terrible, overpaid, and in the way of Andersson.

Struggling? Terrible? I don't think either of those are accurate descriptors for Stone at all. Overpaid? Nope, he's definitely market value these days. He makes the same money Cory Sarich did years ago (inflation has hit hockey since then) and IMO brings as much or more than Sarich did.

He could certainly be moved but it wouldn't be because he's terrible or struggling or overpaid.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Well Brouwer received PP time ahead of Bennett for part of the time they’ve both played together.

My friend served some of the Flames young forwards near the end of the season and he said based on the talk he heard that they don’t think too highly of Brouwer. That’s what I’ve heard on the matter.

Players are human. If most fans thought Brouwer was overused and overrated then you can bet your butt that some of the players did too. They had front row seats for Brouwer’s amazing past two seasons.

I think you overestimate Brouwer’s veteran status and how that affects his rep in the room. You gotta bring it on the ice to earn their respect. If GG had never played Brouwer on the PP this past couple years people might feel differently about him but he clearly was being fed those minutes because of his salary and not because of his offensive contributions.

Thought the Flames did a very poor job with Bennett on so many levels. Hartely talked about the importance of letting young guys play a lot and gain confidence. Bennett got sheltered then MT passed him on the chart right away while Bennett was stuck with Brouwer. That couldn't have helped his confidence. Made me feel a bit better when Peters said, "skilled players should have the opportunity to move up", not sure exact quote. Bennett completely lost his confidence at one point and I think the Flames just didn't have the right strategy or personnel.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

Thought the Flames did a very poor job with Bennett on so many levels. Hartely talked about the importance of letting young guys play a lot and gain confidence. Bennett got sheltered then MT passed him on the chart right away while Bennett was stuck with Brouwer. That couldn't have helped his confidence. Made me feel a bit better when Peters said, "skilled players should have the opportunity to move up", not sure exact quote. Bennett completely lost his confidence at one point and I think the Flames just didn't have the right strategy or personnel.

Ironically, I thought Hartley's handling of Bennett was one of the reasons he was let go. But maybe I mis remember

[Nelson]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Struggling? Terrible? I don't think either of those are accurate descriptors for Stone at all. Overpaid? Nope, he's definitely market value these days. He makes the same money Cory Sarich did years ago (inflation has hit hockey since then) and IMO brings as much or more than Sarich did.

He could certainly be moved but it wouldn't be because he's terrible or struggling or overpaid.

I say he is struggling because he is playing against way below average opposition, getting 51.13% OZS%, playing with a defenceman more talented than himself (Kulak) and he has a strong negative effect on the team's control of shot attempts and an even stronger negative effect on the team's goals for percentage.

Moreover, he is paid $3.5 million dollars per season to play on the bottom pair. In 2017-2018, the average salary for a 3rd pair defenceman was $1.8 million so he is almost double that while not providing the Flames with good play.

[Calgary4LIfe]

I don't mind Brouwer remaining on the team. Unless the Flames are in need of freeing-up some cap space, I don't see the point.


IMO, Brouwer was 'fine' as a 4th liner. His salary stinks, but he was 'fine'. I didn't mind him that much this year other than when Gulutzan would throw him on the PP, move him up the lineup, or over-think things and have him on the ice to take 3 consecutive faceoffs on a 5on3 PK.



Peters' track record shows that he is not afraid to bench guys and/or move guys down the lineup. There is also the chance that Peters finds a way to make Brouwer more productive.


I have said it before, and I will continue to say it - Gulutzan's system was difficult for players of a lesser skill-set to score. The Flames don't move the puck enough, or quickly enough, in the offensive zone and make the opposing goalies move enough. It takes skill like Gaudreau, Monahan and even Ferland to pick corners. I think the evidence of having the Flames miss the net more than any other team was a very strong symptom of that.


It wouldn't surprise me to see Brouwer rebound somewhat. It wouldn't surprise me to see Brouwer continue to decline either. What would surprise me is if Peters overplays Brouwer like Gulutzan did. Now, with that said, I would rather not have Brouwer on the team at all, but I would rather not have his buyout cap hit on the books for 4 seasons. Roll the dice and see what Peters does with him this year.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

Ironically, I thought Hartley's handling of Bennett was one of the reasons he was let go. But maybe I mis remember

Hartely did have some fault's and didn't mesh well with some players. I do think he had some strong concepts that were the backbone of his success. Bennett was younger then, I would have been interested to see how he would have handled Bennett if he had stayed one more year. That said I won't endorse everything Hartley did. I just think to some degree Bennett got lost in the shuffle. Talented players need to play with talented players and feel confident.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Nelson

I say he is struggling because he is playing against way below average opposition, getting 51.13% OZS%, playing with a defenceman more talented than himself (Kulak) and he has a strong negative effect on the team's control of shot attempts and an even stronger negative effect on the team's goals for percentage.

Moreover, he is paid $3.5 million dollars per season to play on the bottom pair. In 2017-2018, the average salary for a 3rd pair defenceman was $1.8 million so he is almost double that while not providing the Flames with good play.

Stone was not a problem in the games I watched. He's getting paid like a borderline top 4 guy because he's a borderline top 4 guy. He can play top 4 if anybody gets injured. We got relatively lucky with injuries on the defense last year. Sometimes having good depth means having 5-6 guys who can play top 4 defense and sometimes you have to pay them accordingly.

As for stats I feel like defensive defensemen often get underrated by the fancy stats. GranteedEV and others bashed Engelland over and over for his fancy stats while he was here but his play was good and obviously he contributed a heck of a lot to the Golden Knights and their Stanley Cup run. So you really have to wonder if those fancy stats really tell you as much as they should about physical defensive defensemen.

Where do the fancy stats take into account that Stone was one of our best dmen at angling and rubbing guys out into the boards? That he was one of the meanest and toughest in front of the net and by the boards? You need 1 or 2 of those guys that will make forwards pay to price to go to the hard areas if you wanna be a hard team to play against. If all your defensemen are soft puck movers then those areas aren't hard for the opposition to go to and you give an easy time to their forwards.

Fancy stats IMO are complete garbage for evaluating defensive defensemen. The game isn't all about getting weak shots on net. Part of the game is big, physical defensive defensemen making it hard on the opposition to win board battles and get to the front of the net. The best scoring chances are screens, deflections and rebounds. So you don't wanna make it easy for the opposition to set up in front of your goalie and get easy screens, deflections and rebounds. Defensive defensemen have a very valuable role in that regard that doesn't seem to currently be captured by fancy stats.

Fancy stats do not tell the whole story about whats going on the ice. They tell a very biased tale that emphasizes certain things and completely fails to emphasize other valuable things.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Nelson

Michael Stone? Nope. I'd like to see him gone. I want Rasmus Andersson to have that 3 RH D position because I think it would be a great next opportunity for his development. I also very much dislike that contract. Michael Stone is also a struggling depth defenceman.

I understand you guys are saying we shouldn't trade Stone for "magic beans" because 2nd/3rd/4th round draft picks only have a chance of working out but it is still worth it to get more kicks at the can, especially because Stone is terrible, overpaid, and in the way of Andersson.

Yeah, but you said any pick. "Whatever the highest possible pick is". You seem to want to give him away, for nothing if need be, just to get rid of him. That's really short-sighted I think.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Well Brouwer received PP time ahead of Bennett for part of the time they’ve both played together.

My friend served some of the Flames young forwards near the end of the season and he said based on the talk he heard that they don’t think too highly of Brouwer. That’s what I’ve heard on the matter.

Players are human. If most fans thought Brouwer was overused and overrated then you can bet your butt that some of the players did too. They had front row seats for Brouwer’s amazing past two seasons.

I think you overestimate Brouwer’s veteran status and how that affects his rep in the room. You gotta bring it on the ice to earn their respect. If GG had never played Brouwer on the PP this past couple years people might feel differently about him but he clearly was being fed those minutes because of his salary and not because of his offensive contributions.

Bennett got more PP time than Brouwer. And Brouwer was completely off the Power play through the entire middle of the season.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Nelson

especially because Stone is terrible, overpaid, and in the way of Andersson.

This is just a terrible player analysis.

Stone is a solid bottom pairing d-man who can step up and play top four in the event of an injury, has a cannon of a shot, and is a physical presence.

What you're suggesting of him being "in the way" is called depth. And on defense, it's valuable.

He could certainly be moved if a deal makes sense, but - "trade him for whatever pick we can get because he's terrible" - is a bad suggestion.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Bennett got more PP time than Brouwer. And Brouwer was completely off the Power play through the entire middle of the season.

Yep. But that is only half the tenure that Brouwer was on the team. And what did Brouwer do to earn his PP time the first half the season? Nothing. Based on offensive talent Brouwer should have never been on the powerplay when our team was healthy. Tkachuk and Ferland were both better at his role. Gaudreau, Monahan, Backlund, Bennett, Jankowski and Jagr have better offensive skill and touch than Brouwer. He should never have been in consideration for a PP spot at all this year. GG obviously had to take him of the PP at some point but he should never have been there at all, that's the point.

You can try to explain it away all you want, it doesn't really change things. Brouwer got opportunities over the last two years he didn't earn based on his on-ice play but strictly because of his salary. Fans resented him for it and its no surprise that some players did as well. They aren't blind, they have a great view from the bench.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Bennett got more PP time than Brouwer. And Brouwer was completely off the Power play through the entire middle of the season.

Important distinction here, Bennett did not get more PP time with PP 1 than Brouwer did. Bennett spent the entire year on PP 2.

[savardandjokinen]

Stone is an number 4 on an average team. Why throw him away? I think under a new coach, things will work out better. Put him with Brodie and they both rejuvenate.

[sureLoss]

Interesting I wonder if the Pens still try for someone else with Sheary or Rust:

https://pittsburghhockeynow.com/sour...i-sheary-rust/

Late Friday the Arizona Coyotes traded struggling forward Max Domi to the Montreal Canadiens for out-of-favor forward Alex Galchenyuk. However, sources with knowledge of the talks told Pittsburgh Hockey Now the Penguins organization thought it was they who were about to acquire Domi.

The source told PHN the Penguins offered the Coyotes a choice of wingers, believed to be Conor Sheary or Bryan Rust, with Dominik Simon. The Penguins were confident enough in the offer they were shocked by the Coyotes trade with Montreal.