[CP Story] Makings Sense of the Lucic Trade

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

I'm out of thanks, but this is a post that literally everybody on Calgarypuck should read.

But what about once he's changed this opinion. Will we sticky that one too?

[mrdonkey]

I won’t say I’m nauseated but it sure seems like there’s a lot of slightly hypocritical rationalizing going on around here since Friday.

You don’t have to like and/or justify everything. Disingenuousness is not a noble trait just because it’s your favourite team doing it

[CanadaMatt]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I’d rather flop my opinion around like a fish fresh out of the bowl than trot around with “darkest day of the franchise” .

Well you do you, but if Transplant99 has the opinion above, should he not be able to say without being hounded so relentlessly that we haven't heard from him since?

...hounded by the exact same people who agreed with him (only a few weeks earlier) that Neal was more likely to turn it around than Lucic.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CanadaMatt

Well you do you, but if Transplant99 has the opinion above, should he not be able to say without being hounded so relentlessly that we haven't heard from him since?

...hounded by the exact same people who agreed with him (only a few weeks earlier) that Neal was more likely to turn it around than Lucic.

No.

[Poe969]

I remember when the Flames drafted Tkachuck, I really wasn't a fan. I really wanted pullyourRV and was upset the Flames couldnt get him, I thought he'd be a star next to McWilliamHMacy and didnt think Tkachuck had it in him to be a good player.

My opinion on both fronts changed and I'm not too proud to admit it. When I first heard about this trade, I was upset, I thought Neal just needed another chance and had be good again and now that he went to play with McFrankGallagher, he would s ore 50 next year.

Then I took a breath, I read more about everything and thought it over. Now I'm kind of happy about the trade. There's a lot of different aspects of this to think about but to me the bottom line is that Neal didn't want to be part of the Flames and I just can't cheer for a guy who's on the Flames anddoesn't want to be. I'm sure my opinion will flip flop a dozen times or so when it comes to this and I'm fine with that. I just wish some posters on here would stop talking down to people or insulting people because they don't share the same view as them. Stop being "Richards "

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by CanadaMatt

Well you do you, but if Transplant99 has the opinion above, should he not be able to say without being hounded so relentlessly that we haven't heard from him since?

Just so we are clear - you are talking about since "yesterday" right?
Maybe he's just busy.
It's not like this is Gone Girl or anything.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Originally Posted by Dajazz

Stop making sense please, I want to be angry.

[united]

Originally Posted by Bingo

More detail ...

Times when he had 2 of them (187 minutes)

76 minutes with Gaudreau and Monahan ... xGF 42.2%
72 minutes with Backlund and Tkachuk ... xGF 44.8%
19 minutes with Gaudreau and Lindholm ... xGF 75.7%

He dragged the top two lines down badly when he lined up with them (5-6 games each)

Originally Posted by Bingo

If you include Ryan he moves from 41% to 58%

Another interesting one ...

242 minutes with Sam Bennett 53.3% CF
541 minutes without Sam Bennett 49.3% CF

Natural Stat Trick adjusted, for comparison again. I wonder why some of these are so different to your database. But the point remains: Neal was an anchor.

76 -> 73.5 minutes with Gaudreau and Monahan ... xGF 42.2% -> 43.3%
72 -> 75.5 minutes with Backlund and Tkachuk ... xGF 44.8% -> 42.5%
19 = 19 minutes with Gaudreau and Lindholm ... xGF 75.7% -> 72.1%

242 -> 247 minutes with Sam Bennett 53.3% CF -> 52.5%
541 -> 537.5 minutes without Sam Bennett 49.3% CF -> 50.0%

[GreenLantern2814]

I keep reading this thread title as "Stop making sense of the Lucic trade" and it's like my brain is telling me something.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by ricosuave

I'd like to hear from some of our posters who are fans of other teams...

Landshark?
TheFoss1957?
Cali Panthers Fan?

Any others I'm missing?

Would love to hear your takes on Neal/Lucic!

Well I'm a Flames fan first by a longshot, so I'm not entirely objective. Out of the Cube is a Sabres fan, Save Me Dr. Zaius is a Leafs fan, White Out is a Jets fan. I can't think of any others right now.


Look, this is clearly a trade of toxic assets.

Lucic is toxic because of his contract and declining play.

Neal is toxic because of his attitude and work ethic...and also his contract and declining play.

I'm not sure which team will regret their acquisition more, but I can guarantee each team is thrilled to be rid of their particular toxic problem.

It's not so much that I hate the trade because it's logical to some degree. I hate the fact that James Neal turned into a pumpkin the day he signed that deal. I'm pretty bitter at him for failing to produce even a modicum of the performance that was expected and should still be possible from him. If he performs even slightly well, this deal doesn't happen.

So in the end, I hate James Neal for not performing, for pouting about things, and for necessitating this horrible, horrible trade.

F.U. James Neal.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

Well, Treliving just threw any chance at that over the next 4 years out the window.

Nope ... not just.

55 weeks ago.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

They're a laughing stock because professional media, beat writers, and fans alike see the "unmoveable contract" moved and want to sensationalize things. You don't have to look very hard to see words like "perplexing," "head scratching," and "baffling" being thrown around, with jokes being made at the Flames' expense.

They were a laughing stock after Sutter's panic moves, they were a laughing stock for most of Feaster's tenure (especially after the ROR offer sheet), and they were a laughing stock under Brian "truculence" Burke. The Flames are no stranger to being the NHL's punchline and actually Treliving's first few years turned out to be a break from the norm. The only way people outside of Calgary give two hoots about the Calgary Flames are when they can use them to poke fun, and we're now back to that.

Kind of strage you would question me on this like it's my own personal opinion when there's plenty of evidence out there after just a few days that it's true.

You must have been one of those kids that was afraid to go to school after a haircut.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by CanadaMatt

Now when it suits you...



Last year when it suited you...



https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showpo...1&postcount=23

Absolutely ... and you can see that with three Oilers on the board. Is it a counting thing in that arena or the fact they never had the puck? We've discussed that.

Don't think it means the guy isn't a physical player, you omitted my actual examples from Calgary/Edmonton games last year.

Good to see your obsession with me is moving into day 4!

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Who cares?

Do you have an actual point?

Do you not think Lucic is a physical player who hits a lot?

He's bent out of shape from his "I knew something none of you did!" weekend.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by zamler

I did however watch Lucic play last season he looked like one of the worst players in the league.

Some pretty level headed Oiler fans call him a non event hockey player. His offence has dried up but he can play a shut down role with good defensive players.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by CanadaMatt

Oh, I'm sorry. What changed to make Bingo evolve his opinion and conclude that hits are now a trusted stat (so trusted in fact that this stat is being used to help justify a transaction)? Is there a different approach to counting them than a few months back?

Or are you talking about Opinions on Neal/Lucic. This evolution happened in a week. I believe in evolution, but I 'm not sure it happens that quickly

This is where you get in trouble.

I said he was 7th in a stat. I didn't say the stat could be trusted or that I've changed my mind. It was a quick look up to see the guy on a top ten list.

The rest is you adding to it.

Don't think anyone here thinks Lucic isn't a physical player, or are you saying the opposite?

I'd be a lot more on board with your panic attacks if people were predicting a huge bounce back from Lucic offensively. I haven't seen much or any of that.

But are you honestly surprised that hockey fans look for any upside or silver lining in a hockey transaction? If so that's on you.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

I won’t say I’m nauseated but it sure seems like there’s a lot of slightly hypocritical rationalizing going on around here since Friday.

You don’t have to like and/or justify everything. Disingenuousness is not a noble trait just because it’s your favourite team doing it

Is there though?

Neal wasn't working out, that was talked out for months. Most, certainly me, assumed his deal was next to impossible to move.

Shocking deal comes for a player that I and many have called "a crap player" and "a guy I never wanted on the Flames", which don't exactly seem like ringing endorsements.

So that leaves a hostility towards hockey fans looking for a fit or a silver lining? Adding some toughness and a guy that can compete in his own zone vs a guy that could only score and may never do so again.

Is that really so much spin, or is it looking at a roster again after a shocking change and seeing why it works better or not than the older version.

I see a group of people that want to be mad, and instead of just being mad they tend to get mad at those that aren't as mad. Puzzles me.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by united

Natural Stat Trick adjusted, for comparison again. I wonder why some of these are so different to your database. But the point remains: Neal was an anchor.

76 -> 73.5 minutes with Gaudreau and Monahan ... xGF 42.2% -> 43.3%
72 -> 75.5 minutes with Backlund and Tkachuk ... xGF 44.8% -> 42.5%
19 = 19 minutes with Gaudreau and Lindholm ... xGF 75.7% -> 72.1%

242 -> 247 minutes with Sam Bennett 53.3% CF -> 52.5%
541 -> 537.5 minutes without Sam Bennett 49.3% CF -> 50.0%

I pulled my data from Corsica. It's good for seeing all the combinations without having to choose what players specifically you want to see with and without.

[Heavy Jack]

Honestly the argument about hits is meaningful to me; we were 2nd last in the league in total hits so adding a guy like Lucic is going to help this team not get hit as much while also delivering some punishment to the opposition. Also for the ones who say Lucic isn’t Lucic anymore because he only had 2 fights last year need to keep in mind the complete gong show that was the 18/19 Oilers. They had nothing to play for close to after the holiday break and had all sorts of upheaval with regards to management changes, coaching changes, brutal mid year signings to go along with horrendous team play; there really wasn’t a lot of motivation for players on that team including Lucic.

Lucic gets to come in here and just play his game, no pressure to be one of THEE guys in the room like in Edmonton which his pedigree and contract asked of him at the time of signing; he’s fits perfectly into the bottom 6 and will likely see some time as a net front presence on the 2nd PP unit. I feel there is a great chance he impacts the team positively! Can’t wait for the season to start!

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Bingo

You must have been one of those kids that was afraid to go to school after a haircut.

That’s funny. I don’t really get it, but I like it.