de Grood to be transferred to hospital for assessment

[GGG]

I think part of the NCR judgements should be mandatory lifetime medical compliance monitoring.

Once on medication that he is verified to take he is safer than a random person you meet. Off medication he’s a risk to society.

Compliance monitoring seems like a reasonable way to balance societal risk against personal freedom.

[Ozy_Flame]

He will get compliance monitoring. It says so in the article.

A couple of things to keep in mind:

- It's not common to go from full-time committed patient to absolute discharge, especially with high-profile cases such as this one. People should understand that he's already living in an Edmonton group home. He would then be 'transferred' to live with this parents, with constant monitoring, and under a full warrant. This isn't "let him wander out unattended and unmonitored". If he's going to do normal things like work, staying with caregivers, being observed and scheduled for his medication, that's about the best you could ask for for "absolute discharge" in a case like this.

- He's going to continue to be close to chest with his psychiatrist. If he is absolutely discharged, it means he doesn't have to go before the criminal review board. He still needs to be intimately monitored by his psychiatrist and take medication, which he has shown during his hospital time to be fully compliant with.

- While de Grood's actions were horrific, there are plenty of people with undiagnosed and/or untreated psychosis and schizophrenia walking the streets every day. In de Grood's case, he went from absolutely no medical support to showing rehabilitation through the proper channels. This is a person who also has done much better than other NCR patients who have also committed crimes and have shown little to no ability to rehabilitate that are in the system.

I know the emotions that are involved with a case like this because of the severity of the actions, but the review board would not be allowing this if they didn't see precedent in others suffering from similar schizophrenia who also have committed crimes and have made rehabilitation milestones.

I'm of the opinion with the right management and careful steps, reintegration isn't the worst option. Vince Li has reintegrated into society and so far, everything appears OK as far as we know.

Psychosis is no joke and those who go untreated/undiagnosed really have no control over their actions. NCR is not a criminal outcome taken on or decided lightly.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

He will get compliance monitoring. It says so in the article.

A couple of things to keep in mind:

- It's not common to go from full-time committed patient to absolute discharge, especially with high-profile cases such as this one. People should understand that he's already living in an Edmonton group home. He would then be 'transferred' to live with this parents, with constant monitoring, and under a full warrant. This isn't "let him wander out unattended and unmonitored". If he's going to do normal things like work, staying with caregivers, being observed and scheduled for his medication, that's about the best you could ask for for "absolute discharge" in a case like this.

- He's going to continue to be close to chest with his psychiatrist. If he is absolutely discharged, it means he doesn't have to go before the criminal review board. He still needs to be intimately monitored by his psychiatrist and take medication, which he has shown during his hospital time to be fully compliant with.

- While de Grood's actions were horrific, there are plenty of people with undiagnosed and/or untreated psychosis and schizophrenia walking the streets every day. In de Grood's case, he went from absolutely no medical support to showing rehabilitation through the proper channels. This is a person who also has done much better than other NCR patients who have also committed crimes and have shown little to no ability to rehabilitate that are in the system.

I know the emotions that are involved with a case like this because of the severity of the actions, but the review board would not be allowing this if they didn't see precedent in others suffering from similar schizophrenia who also have committed crimes and have made rehabilitation milestones.

I'm of the opinion with the right management and careful steps, reintegration isn't the worst option. Vince Li has reintegrated into society and so far, everything appears OK as far as we know.

Psychosis is no joke and those who go untreated/undiagnosed really have no control over their actions. NCR is not a criminal outcome taken on or decided lightly.

At the end of the process you describe above in the case of an absolute discharge there will be no more monitoring. He can choose to go off medications. He can choose to stop seeing a psychiatrist.

[Ozy_Flame]

And how do you know this? Have you seen the conditions that are attached with his absolute discharge? Have you conferred with the review board?

Absolute discharge means no conviction is registered, and there is no further criminal parameters like probation. That doesn't mean he is fully released from medical and psychiatric monitoring.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Count me in as one of them, 5 kids murdered, 5 family's torn apart and 100's of friends affected. lets face facts, every mass murderer has some kind of screw loose and not one of them should ever be free to walk among society again.

At the same time de Grood has to live with what he's done. That in itself could be a personal Hell for him and a punishment far greater than being locked up for life.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by Dion

At the same time de Grood has to live with what he's done. That in itself could be a personal Hell for him and a punishment far greater than being locked up for life.

Consequences for actions. I think you need to carefully reflect on your assertion that people wanting justice are out for revenge.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

And how do you know this? Have you seen the conditions that are attached with his absolute discharge? Have you conferred with the review board?

Absolute discharge means no conviction is registered, and there is no further criminal parameters like probation. That doesn't mean he is fully released from medical and psychiatric monitoring.

Can you provide a link that describes the above?
Because based on language one would assume absolute discharge equals unconditional, while a conditional discharge includes conditions.
I'll be happy to read the details of what you describe above

[Dion]

Originally Posted by zamler

Consequences for actions. I think you need to carefully reflect on your assertion that people wanting justice are out for revenge.

I'm all for consequences if de Grood knew what he was doing. In this case he wasn't.

People who want de Grood locked up for life are ignoring that fact that he can be rehabilitated through medication and counseling that makes him aware of what he did and that he must stay on his medication for life.

[rubecube]

Some of the posts in this thread really demonstrate how far we still have to go in terms of believing that mental illness can be and is a thing that is beyond control of the individual afflicted with it.

This isn't a comment on whether he should or shouldn't be released, but saying the honourable thing to do would be to kill yourself in a situation like this is pretty gross.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

And how do you know this? Have you seen the conditions that are attached with his absolute discharge? Have you conferred with the review board?

Absolute discharge means no conviction is registered, and there is no further criminal parameters like probation. That doesn't mean he is fully released from medical and psychiatric monitoring.

There are no conditions on an absolute discharge. That is what makes an absolute discharge absolute. There may be conditions on things that need to happen before an absolute discharge is granted but once granted that’s it. A conditional discharge is one where there are conditions to be maintained but even then those conditions can’t be forced treatment per this site

https://educaloi.qc.ca/en/capsules/n...any%20children.

Option 1 – The accused will be discharged absolutely
An absolute discharge means that the accused will be free to go and will not face any further restrictions or consequences.

An absolute discharge is only granted if the judge is convinced that the accused does not pose a significant threat to society. Significant threat means a risk of serious physical or psychological harm to members of the public, including the victim or to any children.

Option 2 – The accused will be discharged conditionally
A conditional discharge means that the accused will be allowed to live in society, but under certain conditions. Typically, these conditions are meant to manage any risk that the accused poses to society. For example, the accused might be required to live in a certain place or follow certain rules.

However, it’s important to note that the accused cannot be forced to undergo a treatment in order to receive a discharge.

Option 3 – The accused will be confined in a hospital.
If the accused poses a significant risk, they will be ordered confined to a hospital under conditions which are meant to help manage their condition. Depending on the accused’s condition and risk, the disposition order will call for different levels of freedom within the hospital. For instance, the accused may be allowed to attend therapy outside the hospital, with or without an escort. Or, in more serious cases, the accused will be put into a secured forensic unit to manage their risk.

The accused’s disposition is reviewed regularly
If the accused is not discharged absolutely, their disposition will be automatically reviewed every 12 months. This is done to monitor the accused’s mental health. In some cases, the accused may recover, in which case they may qualify for a conditional discharge and eventually an absolute discharge. However, some people may never recover and will remain under the CETM’s supervision long-term.

On what basis are you assuming that their can be conditions placed on him post discharge and what is the mechanism of enforcement of those conditions and on what legal grounds are those conditions established?


Edit: figure I should go right to the source do here is the Justice Canada info

https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/...rr06_1/p1.html

Again an absolute discharge means no further involvement or conditions from the court. It does indicate here that a conditional discharge can require the following of a treatment plan as a condition

If the court or Review Board orders an absolute discharge, the NCRMD accused is released from further involvement with the system for the specific offence that led to the NCRMD verdict.

So what is the legal basis for placing conditions on an absolute discharge?

[CaptainYooh]

Sliver and rubecube:

[fotze2]

Holy crap that is good. I think you just got a hole in one message board style.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Some of the posts in this thread really demonstrate how far we still have to go in terms of believing that mental illness can be and is a thing that is beyond control of the individual afflicted with it.

This isn't a comment on whether he should or shouldn't be released, but saying the honourable thing to do would be to kill yourself in a situation like this is pretty gross.

?

I do believe mental illness can be beyond an individual's ability to control. I think this is a good example of that.

I also think he should kill himself for the greater safety of his fellow citizens, to atone for what he did while out of control, to restore honour to his family, and to sentence himself to the same fate he gave to his victims.

It's called an honor suicide. Unusual in our culture, for sure, but I think in cases like this it is appropriate. I believe it's particularly common in Japanese culture.

I'm not expecting anything of de Grood I wouldn't expect of myself.

I think it's condescending of you to imply I don't understand mental health issues.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by Dion

I'm all for consequences if de Grood knew what he was doing. In this case he wasn't.

People who want de Grood locked up for life are ignoring that fact that he can be rehabilitated through medication and counseling that makes him aware of what he did and that he must stay on his medication for life.

Can you guarantee that?

[Dion]

Originally Posted by zamler

Can you guarantee that?

If he's monitored by health professions to make sure he takes his meds, then yes.

The single most significant reason why individuals with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder fail to take their medication is because of their lack of awareness of their illness (anosognosia).

[Ozy_Flame]

Vince Li (now Will Baker) was granted an absolute discharge but was/is subject to nightly monitoring to ensure he took his medication.

Do not conflate absolute discharge in terms of a legal status that removes the individual from needing to go infront of the Review Board with no medical support. Those are two different aspects to a discharging an NCR patient.

And again, remember that these cases are extremely rare. Studies have shown people who declared NCR from violent offenses have far lower recidivism rates than those with lesser offenses.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Vince Li (now Will Baker) was granted an absolute discharge but was/is subject to nightly monitoring to ensure he took his medication.

Do not conflate absolute discharge in terms of a legal status that removes the individual from needing to go infront of the Review Board with no medical support. Those are two different aspects to a discharging an NCR patient.

And again, remember that these cases are extremely rare. Studies have shown people who declared NCR from violent offenses have far lower recidivism rates than those with lesser offenses.

What are you talking about? Li has no requirements to have any type of monitoring done on him. Any interaction LI has with the medical system is entirely of his own choosing

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.3979861

Where critics of the case have a point is in the decision to grant Li an absolute discharge, meaning he is essentially free of the justice system, rather than a conditional discharge, whereby Li would be required to stick to a treatment plan or report regularly to a psychiatrist. The absolute discharge does make sense from a legal perspective: the review board is required to choose the "disposition that is the least onerous and least restrictive to the accused." As long as the individual "does not pose a significant threat to the safety of the public," he or she must be discharged absolutely.

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Li does not pose a risk to the public now that he is on his medication, according to the medical professionals who have treated him for the last near-decade. But the checks and balances that once existed for him (from a legal perspective, at least) disappeared the moment he was granted an absolute discharge. There is now no legal recourse if he stops taking his medication or seeing his psychiatrist, which is unconscionable for many of those affected by Li's actions, including McLean's family. Understandably so.

Can you link anything show that compliance with medication or treatment after an absolute discharge is not voluntary?

[Ozy_Flame]

Sure thing. Right here in the article.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ticle33995562/

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Sure thing. Right here in the article.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ticle33995562/

You're reading that wrong if you think it means he's still being monitored. The section about daily monitoring was referring to prior to his absolute discharge. The section about after the discharge says:

The decision means Mr. Baker is living free in the community without any conditions or monitoring to ensure he continues taking medication for schizophrenia.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by Dion

If he's monitored by health professions to make sure he takes his meds, then yes.

The single most significant reason why individuals with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder fail to take their medication is because of their lack of awareness of their illness (anosognosia).

This happened while being closely monitored.

Crown prosecutor Matthew Griner said the board considered a conditional discharge but rejected it, citing a relapse of schizophrenia symptoms in 2021.

Griner said DeGrood’s relapse was brief and occurred in the hospital, providing an early window for medical professionals to intervene.

He is trying to get an absolute discharge.