[PGT] Sens 6 Flames 1

[Enoch Root]

Regarding Wills and Loubo saying they played well against the Leafs (and presumably implying that means the systems are fine)...

The thing is, good teams, and good systems don't win every night. Bad teams, and bad systems, don't lose every night. You're going to have good games, and you're going to have bad games.

The key is: how often are you good? How often are you winning? How often is it working?

Are you having more success than your talent level would suggest? Or less?

THAT is the test. And I think the answers are pretty clear (to everyone other than Wills and Loubo)

[Locke]

Good job boys.

The worst team in the League speedbagged you like chumps.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

Lindholm? Markstrom? Tkachuk? Defense is almost all new from 5 years ago.

There is a reason Trelieving's ex-coaches never see HC gigs again. And it's not because the Flames killed them. It's because they are not good at their job. Geoff Ward will join that list this off season.

Gio, Monahan, Gaudreau, Tkachuk (year 4), Backlund.

Lindholm is the newest part of that...true.

Brodie and Hamilton are out though again i never considered them core guys per se.

As far as "Trelivings ex-coaches"...there are 2.

1 is in the NHL as an assistant though I agree he is unlikely to ever get another NHL HC gig.

The other would still be THIS NHL teams HC if he wasnt a bad human...so im really not sure what point you are attempting.

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

They didn’t miss the playoffs in 17-18 because this core played poorly though.

They missed the playoffs because they shot 7.83% (29th) and because they had bad goaltending (.905 - 21st)

Overall that team drove possession, generated quality and limited chances.

Corsi For %: 53.1% (2nd)
xGF%: 51.4 (9th)

HDCF%: 54.1% (4th)
HDCF/60: 12.87 (2nd)
HDCA/60: 10.9 (12th)

The fact that they were as close as they were and finished 20th with a .512 points percentage was actually pretty remarkable in retrospect because usually if you have that mix of shooting percentage and save percentage you are a bottom 5 team.

IIRC I was actually a pretty big Gulutzan defender at that time and still think he was somewhat unfairly treated for what was a combination of bad shooting luck and poor goaltending. He made his mistakes like being adamant to play Brodie on the left side, but overall he had this team playing strong structured hockey, and had is team in much better shape than Ward has this team.

If Ward had that shooting percentage and save percentage mix this year we’d be 31st for sure.

Just out of curiosity, how would you rank the last 5 Flames coaches during their tenues with the Flames?

[TheScorpion]

1. Peters? I guess? Feels dirty to say it but... they had 107 points. But also... you know. So I can't really call him a good coach at all.
2. Gully
3. Bob
4. Brent
5. Ward

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

Just out of curiosity, how would you rank the last 5 Flames coaches during their tenues with the Flames?

1) Peters - Horrible person but he had this team playing at a peak that no other coach was able to. His biggest coaching mistake was overreacting to the loss against Colorado and trying to play more heavy hockey that he thought would work better in the playoffs going into 19-20

2) Gulutzan - Made his mistakes and wasn’t the best motivator but he was actually a good teaching coach and had this team playing with a structure and strong system which was needed after Hartley.

3) Hartley - Not a good systems coach, and didn’t have this team playing with structure that was sustainable for long term success but probably the best motivator this core has had. Gets credit for 14-15 but his three other seasons as head coach were really bad and that often gets forgotten.

4) Brent - Had an old aging roster and core that he was trying to get to play a system that didn’t really suit the roster. Similar to Ward in a lot of Ways.

5) Ward - Honeslty feel like this is the worst system I’ve seen this team play in the last 15 years. He’s getting the least out of any Flames coach in that time IMO

It’s funny I see a lot of similarities in the coaches at the end of Iggy’s tenure with the Flames compared to this cores coaches

Playfair = Gulutzan : Had his flaws but was probably unfairly blamed for a lot of the teams short comings but both were good teachers that had the team playing with strong structure.

Keenan = Peters : Both questionable characters that had the team playing the best of out of the other coaches of the same time period. Both teams showed flashes of brilliance under the coach but flounded down the stretch and into the playoffs in the best chance we had

B.Sutter = Ward: Both bad coaches that couldn’t motivate the players they had, and keep trying to shove a square peg into a round hole by trying to get the players to play an ultra conservative, boring system that didn’t suit their strengths.

Unfortunately I don’t think this core ever got their Darryl Sutter.

[Mass_nerder]

1. Bob
2. Peters
3. Butter
4A. Ward
4B. Gully

Having Sutter ahead of Ward/Gully may just be recency bias. It's been long enough that I just remember Sutter hockey being super boring.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

3) Hartley - Not a good systems coach, and didn’t have this team playing with structure that was sustainable for long term success but probably the best motivator this team has had.

I think you have to give Hartley credit for more than just "motivation"

- he was outstanding at line matching, line blending, shortening his bench, reading the hot hand and double shifting them
- he was strong with details. Even more recently, Giordano credits Hartley with teaching him details he never learned under previous coaches.
- he ran high intensity practices, which set the bar for how the team would approach games
- he didn't have overt vet/star favouritism. Even benched Gaudreau and Monahan, batted heads with Raymond and Sarich, pushed Backlund... he really got the most out of individuals, and when he didn't it was because they were cooked

Even if Gulutzan had better systems (and special teams), Hartley was the superior bench guy IMO. This is a guy who coached against Scotty Bowman and soaked in all the things he saw Scotty do.

My fave coach in the league is Joel Quennville... he has the systems of a Gulutzan, but runs his bench to perfection like Hartley. You need both, but given the dilemma of only choosing one... you gotta go with the guy who runs his bench well.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I think you have to give Hartley credit for more than just "motivation"

- he was outstanding at line matching, line blending, shortening his bench, reading the hot hand and double shifting them
- he was strong with details. Even more recently, Giordano credits Hartley with teaching him details he never learned under previous coaches.
- he ran high intensity practices, which set the bar for how the team would approach games
- he didn't have overt vet/star favouritism. Even benched Gaudreau and Monahan, batted heads with Raymond and Sarich, pushed Backlund... he really got the most out of individuals

Even if Gulutzan had better systems (and special teams), Hartley was the superior bench guy IMO. This is a guy who coached against Scotty Bowman and soaked in all the things he saw Scotty do.

My fave coach in the league is Joel Quennville... he has the systems of a Gulutzan, but runs his bench to perfection like Hartley.

Fair. I was just looking at the whole body of work and his record overall was quite poor outside of the one fun season in 14-15. 3 seasons out of 4 being below .500 is not a great look.

But yeah I think you can flip Gully and Bob and it’s not really an issue.

Overall though I think the biggest story is that I don’t think any of these guys are top end elite coaches, or even good coaches for that matter.

I’d label them as as middling to mediocre at best, and downright horrible at worst (Ward).

[Flame On]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Sean’s maybe a Langkow except not drafted as high.

Haha he's a total Langkow.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Fair. I was just looking at the whole body of work and his record overall was quite poor outside of the one fun season in 14-15. 3 seasons out of 4 being below .500 is not a great look.

But yeah I think you can flip Gully and Bob and it’s not really an issue.

Overall though I think the biggest story is that I don’t think any of these guys are top end elite coaches, or even good coaches for that matter.

I’d label them as as middling to mediocre at best, and downright horrible at worst (Ward).

A lot of that was the fact that year 1 was trying to get a last drop of blood from a stone, the writing being on the wall, waiting for the other shoe to drop.

And look at the roster. The returns on Bouw and Iggy were atrocious.

Not a great look statistically, but there is a story. He was there and tasked to do the dirty work, create the culture of accountability, weed out the problems etc.

Bob wore out his welcome and was not Tre’s guy

[Manhattanboy]

Just saw in highlights that at the 10 minute mark of the 1st period OTT had as many goals as the Flames did shots (2).

There is just so much wrong with this team.

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by BlAcKNoVa

Best part of the game sadly

https://streamable.com/lkuka4

Blame that on the pandemic

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Fair. I was just looking at the whole body of work and his record overall was quite poor outside of the one fun season in 14-15. 3 seasons out of 4 being below .500 is not a great look.

But yeah I think you can flip Gully and Bob and it’s not really an issue.

Overall though I think the biggest story is that I don’t think any of these guys are top end elite coaches, or even good coaches for that matter.

I’d label them as as middling to mediocre at best, and downright horrible at worst (Ward).

For the most part, we're not on a different page, but I do think Hartley may be better than we made him look. His systems were so dependent on having defensemen who could make a clean outlet pass, yet who did he really even have? Kris Russell? And then we trade Russell away and give him Jyrki Jokipakka?

I remember looking at the 2017-18 squad, two years after Hartley, and seeing guys like Stone, Hamonic, and Kulak. While that sounds underwhelming in retrospect, those guys were clearly better outlet passers than what Hartley had. Gulutzan also had Matthew Tkachuk, who Hartley did not.

I know a lot of analytics people see Hartley and think "sub 50% corsi = bad coach" but there's some nuance there IMO. I think his systems were very demanding on defensemen, but could have worked. The same year he got canned, the Stars under Lindy Ruff were running pretty much the same system to the best record in the West and they were a very good possession team. Even the Blackhawks under Quennville during their three cup runs, I thought utilized a lot of the same philosophies (fronting the puck on the PK, stretch passes, etc). So I can't help but wonder if maybe Hartley just never had the horses, period.

We'll never know though. Flames don't need a re-tread, no team does.

I hope our next coach is someone who makes us never have to look back at the Gulutzans and Hartleys and Wards though.

[djsFlames]

Brent was terribad.
Bob was decent.
Gulutzan was terribad.
Peters was terribad in the room, but good behind the bench for one season.
Ward is terribad.

The fans deserve a better hire after that run.

[shadowlord]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

Robert should give a speech to the team before every game and during every intermission.

I bet Robert's speech would be more intense than any coaching they're getting now.

[dino7c]

Is Robert on CP?

[Mindtravellee]

Are there any stats for goalies backing up? Can anyone content on how Zag went when swapped in or was it junk time?

[Huntingwhale]

Boy oh boy. Said it in the pre-game thread; this is a trap game and easily a trap series. Disappointed that my stupid prediction came to fruition.

Only a matter of time before we are in the basement of this division.

Yet another game I'm glad I quickly skimmed through once it was 2-0 in the 1st and Flames only had 2 shots on goal. Garbage team. Fire the coach, sure. But some of the junk better get shipped out alongside him.

[CalgaryFan1988]

For those who still think it's not a coaching issue;

The team clearly quit on the coach, so either way it is now a coaching issue.