Sam Bennett Value: Have the Flames held on TOO long? OR is he awesome?

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by The Boy Wonder

He should get at least Ryan money, and probably closer to frolik money and if shorter term then backlund money.

But it hinges on him continuing to play well the last 3/4 of the season like he has for the first 1/4

No doubt he is worth more than Ryan, but he is also RFA, so that will temper the amount somewhat.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

That's perfectly fair response.

Counterpoint though, by the time Yakupov was traded by the Oilers, we unanimously agreed (I'm sure we wrote it down in the monthly meeting minutes) to call him a bust on CP and laugh at the Oilers expense. He was younger than Bennett is now.

Totally different type of player with very different skill sets and strengths and weaknesses. Can’t generalize about players in hockey, everyone is a unique individual with a unique path. Bennett is certainly not Yakupov. Some players are a bust by age 22, but that doesn’t mean Bennett is. Most players are still improving and developing at that age.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Not quite. 35 is around what the sixth highest forward will score, but does not account for anything like injuries.

If a team had a very set top 6 and there was no injuries or the like, and the 6th forward got 35 points, that sixth forward would be disappointing (offensively).

Start accounting for injuries, good/bad teams, line juggling, and an above average complimentary second line forward should be a "40 point forward" in my opinion.

2017/18 Caps, 6th best forward: 35 points
2016/17 Pens, 6th best forward: 37 points
2015/16 Pens, 6th best forward: 32 points
2014/15 Hawks, 6th best forward: 37 points
2013/14 Kings, 6th best forward: 29 points
Avg: 34 points

None of the last 5 cup winners have had 6 forwards with 40 points.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by David Struch

I doubt Sam reaches 26 points again, nevermind 36 points.

LOL. Must be fun to be such a pessimist! Not

I’d happily make a bet that Bennett will score 30+ points in his career at some point again. That’s pretty much a lock IMO. He scored 30+ at age 19, obviously he can do it again

[Flames1217]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

LOL. Must be fun to be such a pessimist! Not

I’d happily make a bet that Bennett will score 30+ points in his career at some point again. That’s pretty much a lock IMO. He scored 30+ at age 19, obviously he can do it again

I would bet 20$ he does it this season even.

Chances are there every game, with constant top 6 minutes he should get around 35 points.

[David Struch]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

LOL. Must be fun to be such a pessimist! Not

I’d happily make a bet that Bennett will score 30+ points in his career at some point again. That’s pretty much a lock IMO. He scored 30+ at age 19, obviously he can do it again

That's not what I'm saying.... I'm actually just referring to this season.

I doubt Sam reaches 26 points again, nevermind 36 points.

*I doubt Sam reaches 26 points again (again as in this season, like he has the past two seasons) nevermind 36 points (like he had three seasons ago)

So, what I'm saying is, this season, Sam will not better his numbers from the past two years, nevermind better his career numbers (18 goals 18 assists) from three years ago.

I agree Bennett should break 30 points at SOME point during his career.

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

2017/18 Caps, 6th best forward: 35 points
2016/17 Pens, 6th best forward: 37 points
2015/16 Pens, 6th best forward: 32 points
2014/15 Hawks, 6th best forward: 37 points
2013/14 Kings, 6th best forward: 29 points
Avg: 34 points

None of the last 5 cup winners have had 6 forwards with 40 points.

So if I'm interpreting this correctly, what you're saying is when Bennett breaks out over the next few weeks and goes on a run and is at over a 40 points pace, our forward depth will be better than the recent cup winners.

Feels good man.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

2017/18 Caps, 6th best forward: 35 points
2016/17 Pens, 6th best forward: 37 points
2015/16 Pens, 6th best forward: 32 points
2014/15 Hawks, 6th best forward: 37 points
2013/14 Kings, 6th best forward: 29 points
Avg: 34 points

None of the last 5 cup winners have had 6 forwards with 40 points.

Nope and I never said they did. I explicitly said you had to account for injuries, which you didn't bother to do. Pretty much all of them outside of Washington had 6 forwards capable of 40 points though. What they had was games missed, call ups or trades.

2017-2018, Caps 6th best forward: Wilson. 35 points, Obviously I'll give you this one, however, prior to the playoffs no one would have considered him an above-average second line player. So really moot point.

2016-2017, Pens 6th best forward: Hornqvist, 44 points. Obviously he was behind Crosby, Malkin, Kessel and Sheary. Unless you want to argue that it was Guentzel? 33 points in 40 games. Issue was he was called up half way through the season.

2015-2016, Pens 6th best forward: Kunitz, 40 points. Crosby, Malkin, Kessel, Sheary and Hagelin. See, again you're missing Hagelin and 27 points in 37 games because he was traded for half way through the season. But it's misleading to exclude him because they entered into the playoffs with 6 forwards scoring 40 points, and won because they had 6 forwards capable of 40 points (in part).

2014-2015, Hawks 6th best forward: Toews, Kane, Hossa, Saad, Sharp were the top 5, meaning Versteeg was 6th. 34 points in 61 games, 45+ pace. Versteeg missed games due to injuries.

2013-2014, Kings 6th best forward: Brown. Kopitar, Gaborik, Carter, Williams, Toffolli obviously were better. Brown's an enigma. He had 60 points before, he had 60 points after that season. He had a 45 point pace in the playoffs.

[Enoch Root]

You keep looking for ways to dismiss the fact that most teams don't have 6 forwards over 40 points and that a player can be a valuable top 6 player without hitting 40 points. But no matter how many excuses get presented, the fact remains that Bennett has been good on the 2nd line, has been producing so far since being put there, and it is entirely possible to be a good 2nd liner putting up 35 points or so.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

You keep looking for ways to dismiss the fact that most teams don't have 6 forwards over 40 points and that a player can be a valuable top 6 player without hitting 40 points. But no matter how many excuses get presented, the fact remains that Bennett has been good on the 2nd line, has been producing so far since being put there, and it is entirely possible to be a good 2nd liner putting up 35 points or so.

Did any team have all six top players get 40 or more points last year?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Tibnadian_tpd

23.4 point pace as of now, round down to 23, or up to 25?

Sorry ... had them at 20 games not 21

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by blankall

Did any team have all six top players get 40 or more points last year?

I am not going to bother looking, but I think there were a couple - Minnesota?

Why? What difference does it make?

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by blankall

Did any team have all six top players get 40 or more points last year?

FWIW –

Toronto had eight forwards with 40+ points. Boston and Tampa had seven. Carolina, Nashville, Vegas, and Winnipeg had six.

Washington won the Cup with just four 40-point forwards, but one of those was Ovechkin.

Incidentally, the Oilers were dead last in the league with three. E=NG.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Tkachuk's second snipe in the VGK game was very similar to the goal he scored against CHI except in VGK he went short side and far corner in CHI. Two amazing shots, off the drag and release. Amazing skill (although one may have gone off a shin pad but still).

I would like to see Bennett get off that shot with more regularity, use the defender as a screen and rip it. He's got to get more shots off clean - well more shots off period. It would be great to see him routinely putting 4-5 shots on net a game. If he can make defenders think about whether he's going to drive it hard to the net or shoot it, I think it will give him some time and space.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

You keep looking for ways to dismiss the fact that most teams don't have 6 forwards over 40 points and that a player can be a valuable top 6 player without hitting 40 points. But no matter how many excuses get presented, the fact remains that Bennett has been good on the 2nd line, has been producing so far since being put there, and it is entirely possible to be a good 2nd liner putting up 35 points or so.

Sorry but you made up an argument in your head that I had never even implied. One I had explicitly addressed multiple times.

Bingo: Bennett is an above average complementary second line winger
Me: I think above average complementary second line wingers should be "40 point players"
You: YOU SAID THEY NEED TO HAVE 40 ACTUAL POINTS TO WIN THE STANLEY CUP? NOPE!

What? Like how can I even respond to that, you've completely missed my assertion.

If you want, we can take a look at the Stanley Cup winners to see the rosters they entered into the playoffs with to show that Stanley Cup winners do have 6 forwards capable of 40 points nearly all the time. Let's see how many you disagree with.

Crosby, Malkin, Kessel, Guentzel, Sheary, Hornqvist.

Hornqvist, I would consider a well above-average second line player, at least. He put up 50 points pretty much the entirety of his career.

Crosby, Malkin, Kessel, Hagelin, Hornqvist, Kunitz

Kunitz got the job done. Scored 60 points with multiple teams, a little bit long in the tooth but was still putting up 40 points consistently back then. Even then, I might be hard-pressed to call him an above-average complementary second line player.

Toews, Kane, Hossa, Sharp, Saad, Versteeg

Versteeg, multiple 50 point seasons with multiple teams. Easily a 40+ point player, easily the sixth best player.

Kopitar, Gaborik, Carter, Toffoli, Mr. Game Seven, Brown/Richards

Brown, multiple 60 point seasons. Came back to play in the playoffs. Very inconsistent though, Mike Richards was still putting up 40+ points at the time though. Either way six or seven players that no one would laugh at for calling 40 point players.

Kane, Sharp, Hossa, Toews, Saad, Stalberg/Bickell

Stalberg was the more consistent threat and a 40 point player at the time. However, I did list Bickell because he dominated in the playoffs. Actually Bickell might be the best comparable to Bennett. A player who doesn't always produce, but can take over and win playoff series if you're lucky. I mean, that would be great. I, however, wouldn't call him an above average second line player.

Kopitar, Carter, Richards, Brown, Williams, Penner

This team wasn't good until Sutter and Carter. And even then it needed amazing goaltending and defense. Penner had a solid playoffs, but was no where near where he was when he was scoring 60 points.

Bergeron, Krejci, Marchand, Lucic, Horton, Peverley, Ryder, Recchi

Really pick who you think, but no matter what this team had tremendous depth and eight players who did actually score 40.

If you said that the 2012 Kings didn't have six "40 point players" on it, I would completely agree. Every other team did. Sure, in your "calculation" Peverley, Carter, Hagelin, Gaborik wouldn't count because they didn't play for their teams the entire year, which is completely crazy. And players like Versteeg wouldn't due to injuries, but that's not really reasonable if he's entering the playoffs healthy.

I mean, knock on wood, Gaudreau got injured today and missed the season but entered the playoffs completely healthy. Would you say he was our 10th best forward because 9 other forwards outscored him that year?

[Oling_Roachinen]

Anyways, we should all just be happy that the Flames have a hyped-up first round pick that, despite not meeting his offensive potential fans, shows up every night with a ton of effort, heart, physicality, defensive responsibility. A player who was forced to play with scrubs and considered snakebitten by the fans and hurt by his previous coach stalling his development. Now he's putting up points in a different role in the top six.

Because he was waived and is playing in Stockton. Because I'm obviously talking about Lazar who's 2015 to 2017 threads in the Senators forums are the exact same as this one about Bennett.

[DeluxeMoustache]

I don’t really know what the end point is.

Bennett had 36 points as a rookie with Hartley on the second line.
With third line minutes, blender of dud linemates, garbage coach, and no PP time he was mid 20s. Pretty much in line with his deployment.
Is now being given (for 2 games at least) 2nd line minutes, which many here believe he earned.

Why not just see what he does with the opportunity?

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Why not just see what he does with the opportunity?

Because where's the fun in that?

It's a discussion board. Why do we have the snake thread? Just wait until the season is over and see if they make the playoffs.

Why do we have game threads, let's see the results of the game before discussing it.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Because where's the fun in that?

It's a discussion board. Why do we have the snake thread? Just wait until the season is over and see if they make the playoffs.

Why do we have game threads, let's see the results of the game before discussing it.

Fair enough.

I see Bennett getting 40 points in the next 60 games!

[jonkaupp]

Originally Posted by The Boy Wonder

He should get at least Ryan money, and probably closer to frolik money and if shorter term then backlund money.

But it hinges on him continuing to play well the last 3/4 of the season like he has for the first 1/4

Frolik was a regular .5 ppg when he signed his deal, Bennett is nowhere near that. I’m really happy with Bennett’s play in comparison to the last two years but it over zealous proclamations about how great he is that gets the other side scratching their heads and wondering why everyone is so happy. He’s been better. He’s a decent player. But unless he starts scoring, he isn’t a legit top 6 player. He has a lot of improving to do yet.

Shorter term ‘backlund money’ I mean come on. Even if he turns it on he’s going to finish around 30-35 points. Maybe 40. He ain’t getting anywhere near ‘backlund money’