Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community
Old 06-17-2021, 03:26 PM   #13741
gvitaly
Franchise Player
 
gvitaly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demetric View Post
They are 1 year age difference not 5 or 6, using Jagr as a comparison tool makes zero sense.

Last season they basically had same stats, slightly in favor of Reinhart with him having a .72 ppg while Monahan had a .69 ppg and I would say using this years is unfair as Monahan was dealing with injury again, and the entire team underperformed.

I just don't see how Reinhart has more value than Monahan when Monahan plays the more important position and better track record and they are only 1 year apart in age. I guess maybe using recency bias.
yes, I made that comparison to convey a point. I don’t know which player is better. That’s why I said it was a matter of opinion.

What I observed in Monahan’s game 5 on 5 is concerning to say the least. Over the last two and a half seasons Monahan seems more like a PP specialist, and a 4th liner 5 on 5. I really hope that all his struggles are simply because of injuries. However even if they are all injury related we don’t know the degree to which they’ll heal. I found that once the Flames stopped scoring off the rush Monahan’s line didn’t have a consistent way of generating offence 5 on 5.

Honestly, I hope Monahan can recover, find his offence, and continue improving his defence. I know he is definitely trying out there! I have nothing bad to say about his effort, and i am routing for him. That said, I have a hard time believing in a miraculous recovery at the moment.
gvitaly is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to gvitaly For This Useful Post:
Old 06-17-2021, 03:29 PM   #13742
AustinL_NHL
First Line Centre
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dammage79 View Post
Man I hope one day Mangiapane can.live up to your incredible expectations.

Maybe he is being a little undervalued But your severe over evaluation is worse.

Point is, despite Mangiapanes super amazing 5v5 stats, the team still sucks on the whole. So no one is untouchable.
I mean... none of what I have said has been anything about my expectations for him moving forward.

Everything I've said has been based on what he's done, which I have validated through both statistics and analytics.

So... thanks for coming out?
AustinL_NHL is offline  
Old 06-17-2021, 03:38 PM   #13743
AustinL_NHL
First Line Centre
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Exp:
Default

https://twitter.com/user/status/1405640732849831938
AustinL_NHL is offline  
Old 06-17-2021, 03:40 PM   #13744
Stanley
First Line Centre
 
Stanley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinL_NHL View Post
What?!! How many darn coaches do we need? lol
Stanley is offline  
Old 06-17-2021, 03:40 PM   #13745
Knut
 
Knut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinL_NHL View Post
That would be good. He is a good players guy that people look up to.
Knut is offline  
Old 06-17-2021, 03:41 PM   #13746
Beatle17
Powerplay Quarterback
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stanley View Post
What?!! How many darn coaches do we need? lol
20, one for each player in a game.
Beatle17 is offline  
Old 06-17-2021, 03:45 PM   #13747
Moneyhands23
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: victoria
Exp:
Default

And they say Calgary has a hard time paying coaches

Lol
Moneyhands23 is offline  
Old 06-17-2021, 03:46 PM   #13748
gvitaly
Franchise Player
 
gvitaly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanCharles View Post
As always? Lol now I’m wondering if you are exaggerating how much I exaggerate?

And in my defence, when almost every post I see is us trading Tkachuk I don’t really think I am far off in my assessment.

Anyways, I digress, back to the topic at hand..

Changing the core is not something I disagree with but it should be guys like Gio, Backlund and Monahan at the top of the list. The leaders and longest tenured members of the team.

Trading the few productive players we have is not a smart approach. Especially when they are still in a good age group and haven’t dealt with many injuries.

I just don’t think people are stopping and putting things into perspective.

If this team isn’t going anywhere with those 3 guys you mentioned then we probably need to commit to a full rebuild because those are our best forwards on the team and when they were put together as a line they looked like a legitimate offensive threat every time they were on the ice.

That is not something we can say about a lot of the line combinations we have seen in recent memory.

Retooling with lesser players is not the answer.

Even if change is necessary, you need to be smart about it.
Yeah definitely exaggerated your exaggeration
I am in the full rebuild camp, but I don't see the ownership/management committing to one any time soon. I thought that the roster was structured to give this core a window until the end of 21/22 season. Then either make whole sale changes or rebuild. It seems like the direction has changed because the window seems to have shut a couple of years early.

A lot of players took a step back from the 2018/19 season and followed it up with another step back. Monahan went from a 1b center to a 2/3 center. Giordano from a Norris defenceman to a #3D. Gaudreau went from a superstar to a first line winger that needs some help 5 on 5. Tkachuk went from the future captain of this team and a superstar in the making to someone that looked disinterested and that I wasn't expecting to take over a game.

Again, I think they should rebuild. Trade everything and everyone for futures, including Lindholm. That's because I don't see the team's window of contention opening in the next 3 years. The only way it will happen is if the Flames get very lucky on trades, finding several players that would be a perfect fit in here.
gvitaly is offline  
Old 06-17-2021, 03:46 PM   #13749
Stanley
First Line Centre
 
Stanley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Exp:
Default

Screw getting Eichel, we're getting a coach for every line instead!
Stanley is offline  
Old 06-17-2021, 03:47 PM   #13750
TheScorpion
First round-bust
 
TheScorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: speculating about AHL players
Exp:
Default

I think the intent is to have Cail watching as the eye in the sky — having Muller, Tocchet, and Huska on the bench shouldn't be a problem, I wouldn't think.
__________________
"This has been TheScorpion's shtick for years. All these hot takes, clickbait nonsense just to feed his social media algorithms." –Tuco

TheScorpion is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to TheScorpion For This Useful Post:
Old 06-17-2021, 03:48 PM   #13751
transplant99
Fearmongerer
 
transplant99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Wondering when # became hashtag and not a number sign.
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gvitaly View Post
yes, I made that comparison to convey a point. I don’t know which player is better. That’s why I said it was a matter of opinion.

What I observed in Monahan’s game 5 on 5 is concerning to say the least. Over the last two and a half seasons Monahan seems more like a PP specialist, and a 4th liner 5 on 5. .
4th liner 5 on 5?

Among C's in the last 2 1/2 years (Since 1/1/19), he is 40th in the NHL at ES. (5 fewer pts than Eichel although in more games) Far more points at ES than on the PP.

Not where you want him to be for sure, but far from the hyperbole of being a 4th liner. He has struggled ALONG with JG without question.

I get that people are disappointed in Monahan, but the over the top degradation of what he is on this board is preposterous, and getting worse by the day.
__________________
transplant99 is offline  
Old 06-17-2021, 03:52 PM   #13752
powderjunkie
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gvitaly View Post
As one poster corrected me, he is not guaranteed $9M for the one year. The Flames can choose a team elected salary arbitration instead of extending the $9M qualifying offer. In that case the arbitrator would reward at least 85% of Tkachuk's last year's salary+bonuses. This amounts to a minimum salary/cap of $7.65M for one year.


capfrindly arbitration filings
It would all boil down to his performance this season. If he's similar to this year or worse, he probably gets that min.

If he's closer to 2020 pace, he'd probably get 8ish in arb.

2019 pace = probably 9ish in arb.


Even in the worst case scenario, he gets that 7.65M up front and can structure his subsequent deal accordingly.

If he's signing an 8x8, he'd probably want to go lower in the first year under 10% escrow than the following three years at 6%. Then lower for two years lockout protection and higher at the end. e.g. 6 9 9 9 6 7 9 9
powderjunkie is offline  
Old 06-17-2021, 03:56 PM   #13753
gvitaly
Franchise Player
 
gvitaly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by transplant99 View Post
4th liner 5 on 5?

Among C's in the last 2 1/2 years (Since 1/1/19), he is 40th in the NHL at ES. (5 fewer pts than Eichel although in more games) Far more points at ES than on the PP.

Not where you want him to be for sure, but far from the hyperbole of being a 4th liner. He has struggled ALONG with JG without question.

I get that people are disappointed in Monahan, but the over the top degradation of what he is on this board is preposterous, and getting worse by the day.
The 4th liner was mostly based on this season. Not on the whole 2.5 years. I was thinking more in terms of advanced stats, like GAR.

I'm glad that you agree with everything else I said though, because you didn't bother replying to any of it. That said, love the outrage!

EDIT: I agree that my initial post wasn't too clear. The 2.5 years were more to emphasize that his decline is not something that just happened this season. Also, when you look at stats like G/60 and P/60 5 on 5 Monahan was not doing great. I don't remember the exact numbers off the top off my head though.


EDIT 2: Found some stats I was looking for - On ice goals for/60 even strength this season is the same for Monahan and Nordstrom at 2.1. Monahan is 21st on the team in that stat. Monahan was also 22nd in CF% rel, FF%. 25th in CF% and so on.
Have a look here if you'd like https://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/CGY/index.html

Last edited by gvitaly; 06-17-2021 at 04:30 PM. Reason: Wanted to clarify a couple of things
gvitaly is offline  
Old 06-17-2021, 04:18 PM   #13754
The Cobra
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComixZone View Post
Makes a lot of sense from both sides.

I’d be super bummed to see Eichel land in the Pacific Division and not on the Flames.

Vegas, Edmonton, Anaheim, and LA would be all be set-up pretty nicely to battle for the top-4 spots…and who knows what Seattle ends up being.

I hear a lot of pundits slamming the outlook of the Pacific division, but I don’t quite understand that.
It is based on having a number of very poor teams in the division.

In the last fuller season, 3 of the 7 teams that had less points than games were in the Pacific.

And last season, 6 of 12 teams that had less points than games played were teams that are making up the Pacific. Only 2 did not. Vegas and Edmonton.
The Cobra is offline  
Old 06-17-2021, 04:20 PM   #13755
Lanny_McDonald
Franchise Player
 
Lanny_McDonald's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by transplant99 View Post
I get that people are disappointed in Monahan, but the over the top degradation of what he is on this board is preposterous, and getting worse by the day.
Yes, this has moved beyond ridiculous now. Monahan still remains a top center with a skill that is impossible to teach. If the Flames put him on the market there would be interest from around the league and the returns would be way better than the naysayers here believe.
Lanny_McDonald is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Lanny_McDonald For This Useful Post:
Old 06-17-2021, 04:27 PM   #13756
Demetric
Scoring Winger
 
Demetric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: 0° latitude, 0° longitude
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gvitaly View Post
yes, I made that comparison to convey a point. I don’t know which player is better. That’s why I said it was a matter of opinion.

What I observed in Monahan’s game 5 on 5 is concerning to say the least. Over the last two and a half seasons Monahan seems more like a PP specialist, and a 4th liner 5 on 5. I really hope that all his struggles are simply because of injuries. However even if they are all injury related we don’t know the degree to which they’ll heal. I found that once the Flames stopped scoring off the rush Monahan’s line didn’t have a consistent way of generating offence 5 on 5.

Honestly, I hope Monahan can recover, find his offence, and continue improving his defence. I know he is definitely trying out there! I have nothing bad to say about his effort, and i am routing for him. That said, I have a hard time believing in a miraculous recovery at the moment.
Ah, I see where you are coming from now. Thanks
__________________
In Treliving We Trust!
Demetric is offline  
Old 06-17-2021, 04:27 PM   #13757
sketchyt
Powerplay Quarterback
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald View Post
Yes, this has moved beyond ridiculous now. Monahan still remains a top center with a skill that is impossible to teach. If the Flames put him on the market there would be interest from around the league and the returns would be way better than the naysayers here believe.
This team needs more centers. It's hilarious to see people wanting to move Monahan and Backlund for pennies, especially when Sutter is a coach who craves and succeeds with C depth.

Trade Monahan and Backlund? LOL. This is how you end up with Ben 'first-line center' Street centering Iginla.
sketchyt is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to sketchyt For This Useful Post:
Old 06-17-2021, 04:41 PM   #13758
CliffFletcher
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: May 2006
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by atb View Post
Friemdan was on Buffalo radio today talking about Eichel, sounds like the Ducks are in pretty serious talks for Eichel.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1405546141144563716
Seeing as I had overlooked the presence of a blue chip goaltending prospect in the Sabres system, I’ll revise my Ducks pitch for Eichel:

Comtois
Manson/Henrique
2021 #3OA pick

Maybe add Max Jones with the Sabres throwing in a 3rd or something
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze View Post
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
CliffFletcher is offline  
Old 06-17-2021, 04:51 PM   #13759
SeanCharles
First Line Centre
 
SeanCharles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gvitaly View Post
Yeah definitely exaggerated your exaggeration
I am in the full rebuild camp, but I don't see the ownership/management committing to one any time soon. I thought that the roster was structured to give this core a window until the end of 21/22 season. Then either make whole sale changes or rebuild. It seems like the direction has changed because the window seems to have shut a couple of years early.

A lot of players took a step back from the 2018/19 season and followed it up with another step back. Monahan went from a 1b center to a 2/3 center. Giordano from a Norris defenceman to a #3D. Gaudreau went from a superstar to a first line winger that needs some help 5 on 5. Tkachuk went from the future captain of this team and a superstar in the making to someone that looked disinterested and that I wasn't expecting to take over a game.

Again, I think they should rebuild. Trade everything and everyone for futures, including Lindholm. That's because I don't see the team's window of contention opening in the next 3 years. The only way it will happen is if the Flames get very lucky on trades, finding several players that would be a perfect fit in here.
Gio falling off is to be expected given his age.

Monahan, I’m not convinced he is as bad as most are currently thinking.

Gaudreau played most of the season with an injured Monahan and a 4th line winger.

Tkachuk is the type of guy I truly believe thrives with fans in the seats, it’s not a good excuse or even a free pass for him but he isn’t what he was this season. He looked horrible you are not wrong but there were signs of him coming back around when they put him on a line with Johnny.

My overall point is I think it could be regrettable to trade players like Tkachuk after one bad season.

Players have bad seasons. Even the best of the best do. Kopitar after a 52pt season, in 16/17, was thought to be on the downside of his career. He followed that up with a 92pt season the following year and has been flirting with a pt/g pace since his down year.

Tkachuk is 23yo. This kids skill set is not depreciating.

He will only get better.
SeanCharles is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to SeanCharles For This Useful Post:
Old 06-17-2021, 09:05 PM   #13760
Snuffleupagus
Franchise Player
 
Snuffleupagus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by atb View Post
Friemdan was on Buffalo radio today talking about Eichel, sounds like the Ducks are in pretty serious talks for Eichel.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1405546141144563716
If Treliving allows Eichel to go to a divisional rival he should be fired on the spot.
Snuffleupagus is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:32 PM.

Calgary Flames
2023-24




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Calgarypuck 2021