Alberta Residential Energy Savings Program

[snootchiebootchies]

Originally Posted by photon

Depends I guess, would have to figure out the emissions from gas car vs. the percentage of electricity from coal and percentage of that.

Or I just decide all my electrons for my electric car happens to come from the non-renewable sources and not worry until electric car usage exceeds non-renewable generation

The benefits of electric vehicles are more than just the ones for the climate. And there are other emissions from vehicles than just greenhouse gases. Even if coal use is prevalent, electric cars will still displace smog-generating and harmful emissions from densely populated urban centers to more remote rural areas where the coal generating stations are located.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by jwslam

Dear Rachel:

Your RFP says to use Ecofit, but I have found this provided that provides products with the exact same specs or better, and my bid is $XXX lower than Ecofit's. I have also met all other requirements.

Thanks,
-Lowest Bidder A



Hello Lowest Bidder A:

You will not be award the contract as Ecofit is from Ontario and I need their premier's support so Ecofit is the only option.

-Rachel

Man you got the scoop on some real, hard evidence there. Should probably email it to The Rebel.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

The thing that no one here is addressing however is whether those two lower proposals met the requirements of the RFP. Lord knows I've seen "lowest bidder" RFP submissions that handwave requirements or outright skip them.

Oh for sure. But I'd like to know the details, not just a standard "We took the lowest bidder" answer which is a lie. I think there may be some devils in those details.

The second annoying part is that contractors have to register with the government in order to be awarded the new contracts for windows, insulation, etc. I guess existing qualifications are no longer good enough for some reason?

[llwhiteoutll]

They need to remove the requirement that the work needs to be done by an approved contractor. That portion is completely unneeded and is just going to wind up in cronyism, with "approvals" handed out to NDP friendly contractors.

There is no difference whatsoever between a contractor installing windows or insulation and me doing it. Yet I don't get money back unless I shell out a exorbitant rate to someone to do it for me.

[Simon96Taco]

Originally Posted by llwhiteoutll

They need to remove the requirement that the work needs to be done by an approved contractor. That portion is completely unneeded and is just going to wind up in cronyism, with "approvals" handed out to NDP friendly contractors.

There is no difference whatsoever between a contractor installing windows or insulation and me doing it. Yet I don't get money back unless I shell out a exorbitant rate to someone to do it for me.

Well.... I'd argue that it depends on the definition of "approved".

I get what you're saying about installing something yourself, but if someone like you (or I) install some high efficiency windows and do an terrible job, the energy efficiency coukd be compromised. You could say the same about a furnace, insulation etc.

Again, not knocking your construction ability, but having a qualified contractor do the installation might be a sensible requirement.

[llwhiteoutll]

Originally Posted by Simon96Taco

Well.... I'd argue that it depends on the definition of "approved".

I get what you're saying about installing something yourself, but if someone like you (or I) install some high efficiency windows and do an terrible job, the energy efficiency coukd be compromised. You could say the same about a furnace, insulation etc.

Again, not knocking your construction ability, but having a qualified contractor do the installation might be a sensible requirement.

There are already checks in place through the city inspection system and the current restrictions on what can be done under a home owner's permit. The contractor requirement has absolutely nothing to do with safety or ability, it is simply to drive money to businesses that the government has sole say in approving. I'm allowed to trench my property, sometimes in close proximity to natural gas lines, run 240v electrical lines, hook them and power them on myself, but I have to have an approved contractor install some insulation or a window?

When it comes to correct installation, that risk is basically fully borne by the homeowner. If I buy a set of windows that qualify for a rebate and don't install them right, the only loser in the long run is me, since I won't wind up getting their full benefit. All that will happen is that you might wind up saving the labor cost on an install, as opposed to having the actual material cost lowered. I also wouldn't be very shocked if Ecofit is one of the first to be approved to facilitate the program.

[Ashartus]

After some digging I found the opportunity on Alberta Purchasing. The RFP had been removed, but a search for the reference number turned it up on the Wildrose website where they'd conveniently saved a copy.

Interestingly it's structured more like a professional services RFP than a supply RFP. Price is a fairly small part of the scoring and to be successful you'd basically have to have implemented a similar program somewhere else. So local bidders probably didn't really have a chance of winning the way it was structured.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by llwhiteoutll

There are already checks in place through the city inspection system and the current restrictions on what can be done under a home owner's permit. The contractor requirement has absolutely nothing to do with safety or ability, it is simply to drive money to businesses that the government has sole say in approving. I'm allowed to trench my property, sometimes in close proximity to natural gas lines, run 240v electrical lines, hook them and power them on myself, but I have to have an approved contractor install some insulation or a window?

When it comes to correct installation, that risk is basically fully borne by the homeowner. If I buy a set of windows that qualify for a rebate and don't install them right, the only loser in the long run is me, since I won't wind up getting their full benefit. All that will happen is that you might wind up saving the labor cost on an install, as opposed to having the actual material cost lowered. I also wouldn't be very shocked if Ecofit is one of the first to be approved to facilitate the program.

The issue is that the rebate is being given to reduce carbon emissions. If you fail to do it properly you shouldn't get the rebate and therefore the loser is the province if they are installed incorrectly.

Im not sure forcing contractors to do it is the right thing to do but the quality of work does need to be assured in some way or there is no point to having the program.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by Simon96Taco

Well.... I'd argue that it depends on the definition of "approved".

I get what you're saying about installing something yourself, but if someone like you (or I) install some high efficiency windows and do an terrible job, the energy efficiency coukd be compromised. You could say the same about a furnace, insulation etc.

Again, not knocking your construction ability, but having a qualified contractor do the installation might be a sensible requirement.

But we already have people qualified to do this work. Plumbers, gas fitters, glaziers, insulators...all these trades are certified to do this work already. Just mandate that it be done by a journeyman contractor with insurance and a business number and voila...you're good. This registration thing is dumb.

[V]

Originally Posted by Ashartus

After some digging I found the opportunity on Alberta Purchasing. The RFP had been removed, but a search for the reference number turned it up on the Wildrose website where they'd conveniently saved a copy.

Interestingly it's structured more like a professional services RFP than a supply RFP. Price is a fairly small part of the scoring and to be successful you'd basically have to have implemented a similar program somewhere else. So local bidders probably didn't really have a chance of winning the way it was structured.

I would expect it to be structured as a services RFP. The intent was for a company to source material and contractors to do all the work. This RFP is more for someone to just run the project.

I didn't read too closely, but I see nothing requiring the Ecofitt product. I also see nothing in there about this turning into some kind of weird crown corporation, which didn't make sense in the first place. I really don't see anything to get excited about. A whole lotta t99 hullaballoo for nothing.

[llwhiteoutll]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

But we already have people qualified to do this work. Plumbers, gas fitters, glaziers, insulators...all these trades are certified to do this work already. Just mandate that it be done by a journeyman contractor with insurance and a business number and voila...you're good. This registration thing is dumb.

But at the same time, a lot of people who are qualified to do this by themselves won't be doing it.

If the rebate covers the cost of install, there is no real incentive for people like me to do these upgrades. If I could use the rebate to offset the cost of materials, I'd have a lot more reason to shell the money out.

[para transit fellow]

If you don't have a list of vetted contractors, then we could all write as many fake invoices as we wanted for anyone who asks for an invoice on their "renovation"

[V]

Is that how the Cons Home Renovation Credit worked?

[para transit fellow]

Originally Posted by V

Is that how the Cons Home Renovation Credit worked?

I know a fellow that created "realistic facsimilies" of a year's worth of transit passes for the publc transit credit.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by para transit fellow

If you don't have a list of vetted contractors, then we could all write as many fake invoices as we wanted for anyone who asks for an invoice on their "renovation"

That's not really a concern. Not too many legitimate businesses do that.

Originally Posted by llwhiteoutll

But at the same time, a lot of people who are qualified to do this by themselves won't be doing it.

If the rebate covers the cost of install, there is no real incentive for people like me to do these upgrades. If I could use the rebate to offset the cost of materials, I'd have a lot more reason to shell the money out.

Good point. Also none of this stuff is any good for condo owners. Also tankless water heaters are not good for some houses.

[Simon96Taco]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

But we already have people qualified to do this work. Plumbers, gas fitters, glaziers, insulators...all these trades are certified to do this work already. Just mandate that it be done by a journeyman contractor with insurance and a business number and voila...you're good. This registration thing is dumb.

Yeah, I agree. That's why I was saying it depends on the definition of "approved". If it just means a business qualified technically (e.g. A journeyman plumber for gas line work etc) then I wouldn't really have a problem with it. If "approved" means to pick from a very short list of contractors relative to how many can actually do the work competently, then I can see the issue.

[Bill Bumface]

I think the easiest way to avoid fraud, is just bring it all in house. Crown corporations for everyone.

Government of Alberta Windows.

Government of Alberta Furnace.

Government of Alberta Home Appliance Manufacturing.

Government of Alberta Home Appliance Sales.

Government of Alberta Home Appliance Installation.

Government of Alberta Home Appliance Installation Inspection.

[Simon96Taco]

Originally Posted by Simon96Taco

Yeah, I agree. That's why I was saying it depends on the definition of "approved". If it just means a business qualified technically (e.g. A journeyman plumber for gas line work etc) then I wouldn't really have a problem with it. If "approved" means to pick from a very short list of contractors relative to how many can actually do the work competently, then I can see the issue.

Quoting my own post, because I actually looked at the news article where it states the following:

"Contractors who wish to be added to the registry can apply at efficiencyalberta.ca. They must complete a short training course and meet the following criteria:

Be a legally registered business in Alberta
Have current liability insurance
Have current Workers’ Compensation coverage"

So, it doesn't sound to me like they are listing just a small group of NDP-favoured outfits to do the work. They just need to meet some pretty minimal requirements.

[llwhiteoutll]

If those are the only requirements, this works well.

Anyone who has their own business should be able register and do the work themselves. Even if they are not a contracting company.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by V

I would expect it to be structured as a services RFP. The intent was for a company to source material and contractors to do all the work. This RFP is more for someone to just run the project.

I didn't read too closely, but I see nothing requiring the Ecofitt product. I also see nothing in there about this turning into some kind of weird crown corporation, which didn't make sense in the first place. I really don't see anything to get excited about. A whole lotta t99 hullaballoo for nothing.

My hullaballoo?

Hear information from someone who was involved in the whole bidding process and is a local company.

Post that information for anyone who cares about this to read.

Same guy then goes on Calgary radio, repeats verbatim what I stated he said and adds some other information.

I post link to said interview for those who care to read about said subject.

In all your wisdom you then try and take a subtle potshot at me and say I am creating "hullaballoo" because you briefly read what you think was contained in the RPF and didn't believe it lined up with what HE said and instead call into question the messenger.


Those are some serious mental gymnastics on your part and truly a real solid contribution to CP man. Well done.