Solidarity with Sask Teachers

[MacDaddy77]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

And I get why you'd prefer he be in a regular classroom.

But time spent one-on-one is a zero sum game in a classroom. If one kids gets more that necessarily means that others are getting less.

IMO there's some level of support required (and I'm not saying that it includes your son) where a regular classroom isn't the right environment

I think it mostly falls on the Principle and how they allocate the budgets, we have a good Teachers assistant program at the public school and really great teachers.

The Principle at our school advocates for learning support from CBE. Not all schools are this lucky, but you cant place a blanket over all the kids with learning disabilities and remove them from regular classrooms.

[MacDaddy77]

All that being said I am in complete support of teachers and striking to stand up for more supports. Teachers are underpaid and under appreciated ABSOLUTELY.

It was a singular comment that I had an issue with.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

And just to chime in, this is what I have in my classroom pretty much all the time. I have only minimal training to deal with behavior issues, learning disabilities/disorders, psychological issues, teaching to ESL students the nuances of English etc. It doesn't get better at the University level. These students get pushed through a system so that the numbers look okay, but they aren't able to do much once they reach my level, and then they are surprised to discover their grades are poor and they flunk out within a year. Lots of issues with these kids never reaching any potential at all. It sucks. I have my own issues with burnout at the end of every year, and it takes me all summer to get my desire to teach back.

It's not the teacher's fault at the lower levels, it's the absolute lack of any sort of support or funding for teachers to do their job. The more I see these problems, the more I think that most of it could be solved by simply doing the necessary thing of funding and supporting teachers and teaching institutions. What we're doing right now isn't sustainable.

Yup.

I think its insane what teachers have to deal with on a daily basis, and then I think it is even being made worse when phones and other devices can create an even bigger issue.

Also, just from my observations, sometimes the biggest lack of support is from parents not giving a #### about their kids, and thinking their kids are entitled to the perfect education without the parents actually have to raise kids that are ready to learn.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by MacDaddy77

I think it mostly falls on the Principle and how they allocate the budgets, we have a good Teachers assistant program at the public school and really great teachers.

The Principle at our school advocates for learning support from CBE. Not all schools are this lucky, but you cant place a blanket over all the kids with learning disabilities and remove them from regular classrooms.

I do think their should be a line somewhere. My younger son lost a huge amount of learning in grade 2 because a kid in the room was hugely disruptive. He regularly threw furniture. They were evacuated from their class room because he was acting out violently at least 25 times. He punched other kids, and when he wasn't acting out he'd sit at the back of the classroom loudly playing with toys he brought, which is also disruptive. This kid's teacher has either quit or taken a leave in grade 1, grade 2, and grade 3.

There's no way he should be in a regular classroom, because the disruption he does to the learning of 20+ other kids exceeds any possible benefit to himself.

Tldr: learning disability and need some extra help --> regular classroom is fine.

Consistently disrupting the learning of everyone else with violence --> you need something different

[you&me]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

I do think their should be a line somewhere. My younger son lost a huge amount of learning in grade 2 because a kid in the room was hugely disruptive. He regularly threw furniture. They were evacuated from their class room because he was acting out violently at least 25 times. He punched other kids, and when he wasn't acting out he'd sit at the back of the classroom loudly playing with toys he brought, which is also disruptive. This kid's teacher has either quit or taken a leave in grade 1, grade 2, and grade 3.

There's no way he should be in a regular classroom, because the disruption he does to the learning of 20+ other kids exceeds any possible benefit to himself.

Tldr: learning disability and need some extra help --> regular classroom is fine.

Consistently disrupting the learning of everyone else with violence --> you need something different

Based on the anecdotes of some posters here, the problem seems to be that there isn't just one child with a manageable learning disability, but usually several...

Heck, in malcolmk14's case, 24 out of 28 students (86%! ) need some level of extra attention... Can you imagine the negative impact that has? And not just on the other 4 students, but all of them collectively. Like, if each student only requires an extra minute of attention each day, that's still 2 hours of 'lost' instructional time each week... an entire instructional day every month... 2 full instructional weeks each school year.

That's ridiculous.

[MacDaddy77]

QUOTE=you&me;9038795]Based on the anecdotes of some posters here, the problem seems to be that there isn't just one child with a manageable learning disability, but usually several...

Heck, in malcolmk14's case, 24 out of 28 students (86%! ) need some level of extra attention... Can you imagine the negative impact that has? And not just on the other 4 students, but all of them collectively. Like, if each student only requires an extra minute of attention each day, that's still 2 hours of 'lost' instructional time each week... an entire instructional day every month... 2 full instructional weeks each school year.

That's ridiculous.[/QUOTE]



No! That’s Public school

[you&me]

Originally Posted by MacDaddy77

No! That’s Public school

I didn't say it wasn't... just that it's ridiculous

[manwiches]

Originally Posted by Sliver

lol. Those were the class sizes (even up to 35) through the early 80s and 90s when I was in school. Every single teacher in Canada knew those were the class sizes before their first day in the education program at university because they went through school with those exact class sizes.

The government is resisting class size reductions because of all the additional costs associated with reducing them. You'd need more buildings, more staff, etc. Plus, this works. Always has and always will.

As for kids' mental health issues, those have always been there, but we just have names for a bunch of them now that we didn't used to have. People haven't changed.

An issue with increasing class sizes, is also Saskatchewan's immigration policies. I am a proud Canadian Born Chinese, and am very pro immigration. But the government, at the provincial and municipal levels, allowing easy immigration, there is a MASSIVE influx of students/families. So why was there zero foresight to build more schools and infrastucture first?

I am privy to what the cities and municipalities have planned due to my job (no, i don't work for the city or government). In my neighbourhood for example, the plan was for single home dwellings one every lot. Out of nowhere 5 years ago, all those planned single home dwellings got rezoned to multifamily dwellings, and larger parcels from the developer got sold to developers who rezoned to put apartments on them.

So now you have a influx of people, and lack of infrastructure to bear them. This is not just schools too. I have friends in the medical field here who are both nurses and doctors. They are overwhelmed and burnt out as well.

The government has poor foresight, or quite frankly, doesn't give a crap.

[manwiches]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

I do think their should be a line somewhere. My younger son lost a huge amount of learning in grade 2 because a kid in the room was hugely disruptive. He regularly threw furniture. They were evacuated from their class room because he was acting out violently at least 25 times. He punched other kids, and when he wasn't acting out he'd sit at the back of the classroom loudly playing with toys he brought, which is also disruptive. This kid's teacher has either quit or taken a leave in grade 1, grade 2, and grade 3.

There's no way he should be in a regular classroom, because the disruption he does to the learning of 20+ other kids exceeds any possible benefit to himself.

Tldr: learning disability and need some extra help --> regular classroom is fine.

Consistently disrupting the learning of everyone else with violence --> you need something different

This. My kid had his grade 3 experience disrupted by someone similar. He's flagrantly and without provacation hit my kid.

Teacher did absolutely nothing about it, other than tell me that that kid was been talked to.

I finally told my kid to take justice in his own hands. The next time that kid tried to hit him, my kid shoved his @$$ to the ground. I wrote to the teacher right after school, when he told me what happened, and explained that if nothing is going to be done, my kid will handle it accordingly. Kid got suspended finally and moved to the other side of the room, and wouldn't come near my kid.

My kid shouldn't have to resort to that crap. That kid should not have been in the classroom.

Some people may disagree with me. But if you had a kid who is losing his love for school and learning, you'd be feeling very similar. It sounds selfish and self centered, but I truly don't give a care about a child who is disrupting my son's class. He/she can gtfo and go some where else.

[fotze2]

Fata that kid!

[FlamesAddiction]

A question for the teachers here, but is part of the problem that teachers don't have the tools to discipline kids like they used to? When I was in school, there were pretty heavy handed tactics to break kids and correct distracting and impulsive behaviour.

I am not saying we have to go back to full on corporeal punishment, but I will say that when my grade 5 teacher shattered a meter stick across my lower back, I didn't act up after that.

[Azure]

I don't believe heavy handed tactics are the solution.

It is as simple as if you hit other kids, say twice, with after the first time a warning being issued, you're gone. But these days we have to be 'nice' to the kids and not hurt their feelings.

The onus needs to start being put on the parents to raise their kids in a manner that is acceptable to the school, teachers and the other kids in that classroom. If they don't, nobody else should have to suffer because of it.

[spotthefan]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

A question for the teachers here, but is part of the problem that teachers don't have the tools to discipline kids like they used to? When I was in school, there were pretty heavy handed tactics to break kids and correct distracting and impulsive behaviour.

I am not saying we have to go back to full on corporeal punishment, but I will say that when my grade 5 teacher shattered a meter stick across my lower back, I didn't act up after that.

Fair question. Depends how deep in the debate you want to go. For example, the old debate about "self-esteem" versus reality.

But really i'd say that the behaviour is far more complex and we have a greater societal awareness. 30-40 years ago if you went to public school the diversity you would have seen, in elementary, in Alberta might have been racial/cultural and maybe you would have had a couple of those impuslive and loud boys taking Ritalin. Other than that could you name a student with autism that was in your classes? What about students with an AAC device to help them communicate because they are non-verbal?

Has discipline changed? Ya and for a few reasons.

- Human rights legislation, the Alberta Education Act and Policy state that all kids should be afforded the opportunity to be in school (and can't be discriminated against due to various reasons...including their abilities). So all kids have the right to be in their public, designated school.

- So if they must be in a school setting and they have difficult (explosive) behaviours, we have no choice but to try and work through them. And, to be transparent, i'd say the success rate with this is around 70%. But it takes years. So that kid in your kids grade 1 class might figure it out with the right supports and parents by grade 4 or 5. But that is a significant amount of time.

- SO if the student has to be at school and we have to do our best to support them we know that suspending a student just means a break. They will come back and their brain hasn't changed nor has their home situation. They will have the same behaviours. (P.S. Principals in Alberta have the legal authority to suspend UP TO 5 days. Nothing more. They don't control expulsion).

- Research shows that for most kids (and adults) restorative practices have far greater than impact than punitive measures like suspensions. So that is where we start...teaching, conversations, feelings. And this is why after 4-5 years generally 70% of kids improve.

- Compound all of this with the fact that school budgets are decreasing yearly while the complexity of students (medically fragile, autistic, non-verbal, assisted hygiene, and complex behaviour) increases yearly.


Basically schools are stuck in a hard place. We are required to provide quality education for all students AND required to support students with the trickiest of behaviours day in and day out. Parents are mad because a kid is causing their child's class to have to evacuate for safety and the parent of the kid with big behaviours is adamant that they can't help anymore.

[spotthefan]

Originally Posted by Azure

I don't believe heavy handed tactics are the solution.

It is as simple as if you hit other kids, say twice, with after the first time a warning being issued, you're gone. But these days we have to be 'nice' to the kids and not hurt their feelings.

The onus needs to start being put on the parents to raise their kids in a manner that is acceptable to the school, teachers and the other kids in that classroom. If they don't, nobody else should have to suffer because of it.

i know you are being purposely flippant. I get it, that is what it seems. We are legally bound to deal with issues in certain ways.

[manwiches]

Originally Posted by MacDaddy77

He doesn't need to be walked through the work, just reminders to stay on task, there are other kids that need more attention in his specific class but he doesn't have an issue with the material or work, just the way his brain works he gets distracted easier. I'm using my personal life as another point of view to the post.



My POINT is that teachers need to be able to help ALL kids in the class, some classes and schools don't have the funding or support that others do and that sucks but regardless you cant just place all the kids that aren't top percentile in one class and shove the rest of the kids in another to do whatever learning they can because the top quartile should be "leaders and contributing members of society" like somehow having a learning disability excludes you from achieving this.

I read the tone from Manwiches post as being very elitist in such a way that learning disability kids should be learning somewhere else and not with HIS kid.

Everyone is so quick to point out the teachers but I'd challenge most parents on how much work are they putting in with their kids at home. Any time we ask, the teacher is more than happy to send additional worksheet home for us to work on with our son.

Definitely not elitist. And did not mean to come across as such.

More frustrated with the situation and hearing about it every single day with my wife and mom being a teacher.

Sent from my SM-F946W using Tapatalk

[flamesfever]

nm

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by MacDaddy77

No! That’s Public school

Are you saying that this is the ideal reality of public school?

Like it should be expected for any child considering public school that their learning will be disrupted by multiple complex children that will be present in their class?

Am I taking crazy pills or something... I don't remember such disruption when I did school in the 90s.

I've been a huge supporter of public school all my life and laughed at all the Fraser institute rankings for decades but now that I'm reading more about the current state of public education, as well as people saying that this is the ideal way to be inclusive and educate kids going forward. I'm definitely looking at finding the right address or considering private school now.

[Major Major]

No, this is all about the money. No expert is advocating for inclusive education to this degree. But it does have the benefit of being cheap as well as having the side benefit of making everyone in public education look bad and whiny. It's all a formula to achieve the exact sentiment you just expressed. Crazy to see it work so well.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Major Major

No, this is all about the money. No expert is advocating for inclusive education to this degree. But it does have the benefit of being cheap as well as having the side benefit of making everyone in public education look bad and whiny. It's all a formula to achieve the exact sentiment you just expressed. Crazy to see it work so well.

I'm a pretty involved parent and I fought the school aggressively on the out-of-control boy in my kids class. As a family we care about public education more than average I suspect (my wife is a teacher). I'd definitely have been inclined to just say screw it and pay for private school. I can definitely see where he lost ground academically compared to his older brother that year.

But if enough people do that it pulls out the kids without complex needs from the public system, making the system average more difficult. It's probably also the higher income/higher education/more likely to volunteer and support fundraising parents that you're losing.

Not having appropriate discipline for kids who are out of control absolutely has the potential to wreck public education. And to be clear, I don't think that is the fault of the teachers. In this case I pushed very hard and the teacher privately agreed with me (before going on stress leave) but school and district administration refused to do anything.

[DoubleF]

No offense to teachers, but it often seems as if many are not qualified for the modern demands of public school. On top of that, they're not well supported for these new challenging demands. Metaphorically, it's like teachers train as marathon runners. Modern teachers are showing up to the race they've trained for and horrified to discover it's been modified to a triathlon instead.

When I was a student, I seemed to recall teachers focused on customized learning for a portion of the students in their classes, and the requirements for most students was relatively ubiquitous. Now, it seems like it's expected that teachers are required to provide customized learning for every student and there are significantly more varied requirements than several decades ago.

I have no clue what the solution is. I'm just saying and agreeing with many others that things are on a path that aren't likely to succeed without significant overhaul. Personally, I've always viewed school as being for socializing and a baseline education. If custom education/top up is required, that's my responsibility as a parent, not the teachers. It's great if the teachers offer it though, but it shouldn't be expected IMO. If I and the teachers are not adequate enough, then it is my responsibility to hire a specialist (ie: Kumon, a tutor or otherwise). That's how I understood school growing up. But I know many parents disagree with this premise.

IMO it's not the teachers fault. But I as a parent certainly can help to alleviate the issues that many teachers face.