[News] Calgary Flames Garbage Bag Day Media Availability 10AM

[timbit]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Presumably you have more than one star, so if you have a couple 30 goal scorers and a few more 20 goal men, they cover each other off. We are really talking top 6. I’d expect 70-75% of the offence from top 6 players, considering they are also the ones on the power play. Maybe 15-20% from the third line and my better Dmen, and then if I can get 10% of my goals from the 4th I’m good.

TB had 12 goals (out of 180 total) from their present bottom 4. Canes had 14 of 175. Vegas, a team without a lot of elite firepower, had 11 of 190. Calgary was worse, and mixed up lines too much to analyze, but the best bottom 4 you could imagine - say Ryan, Ritchie and Leivo, scored 12 of out Calgary’s 155 goals. Obviously those guys each saw higher line duty, though so the analysis is flawed. That said, put that exact line together and I could see 12 goals anyway. 4 goals apiece? Sure.

BUT Calgary is not getting anywhere with none of the top guys scoring 20 in 56. Winnipeg is a pretty meh PO team and they had 3 guys over 20. Only Nashville and the Isles didn’t have any 20 goal men. And I sure doubt they get past the first round.

Great post. Your best players don’t play better than the other team’s best players ...improbable that you win.

The last 10 games, with individual stat grabbing against weak teams and playoffs out of the picture, shouldn’t fool anybody.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Is Jack Eichler elite? Tell me about his off-season record

lol If Eichel has as few playoff games as Gio at the end of his career it will be a shocking disappointment


As it stands Eichel (unlike Gio) seems to enjoy playing after the regular season ends.

He has 26 WC games in and another 3 on team North America.

He is 1 game behind Gio and is not likely to retire next year.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Presumably you have more than one star, so if you have a couple 30 goal scorers and a few more 20 goal men, they cover each other off. We are really talking top 6. I’d expect 70-75% of the offence from top 6 players, considering they are also the ones on the power play. Maybe 15-20% from the third line and my better Dmen, and then if I can get 10% of my goals from the 4th I’m good.

TB had 12 goals (out of 180 total) from their present bottom 4. Canes had 14 of 175. Vegas, a team without a lot of elite firepower, had 11 of 190. Calgary was worse, and mixed up lines too much to analyze, but the best bottom 4 you could imagine - say Ryan, Ritchie and Leivo, scored 12 of out Calgary’s 155 goals. Obviously those guys each saw higher line duty, though so the analysis is flawed. That said, put that exact line together and I could see 12 goals anyway. 4 goals apiece? Sure.

BUT Calgary is not getting anywhere with none of the top guys scoring 20 in 56. Winnipeg is a pretty meh PO team and they had 3 guys over 20. Only Nashville and the Isles didn’t have any 20 goal men. And I sure doubt they get past the first round.

Yes, if what you're saying is the case, then 10% of goals from the 4th line would equate to roughly 20 to 30 goals depending on how many goals your team scores.

So that's also roughly 20-30 points per 4th liner which is a fair range. I don't know why you're just looking at total goals from each 4th liner either because defensemen also figure into the scoring as well on a line. So disregarding assists completely isn't a reliable indicator of line success.

Patrick Maroon for instance had 18 points in 55 games. So he ultimately figured in on roughly 10% of his team's goals, which based on your number, would put him right where he needs to be. Joakim Nordstrom on the other hand, 4ish%. Well under the mark you set.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

lol If Eichel has as few playoff games as Gio at the end of his career it will be a shocking disappointment


As it stands Eichel (unlike Gio) seems to enjoy playing after the regular season ends.

He has 26 WC games in and another 3 on team North America.

He is 1 game behind Gio and is not likely to retire next year.

Wait - you are judging a player by their WC games? And comparing a 24 year old single guy with a 37 year old guy with a wife and kids? Who has played in 4 playoff rounds (albeit first rounds) which takes him out of WC I of they run long enough? And was injured in a couple others?

LOL. OK. Whatever.

[activeStick]

Just finished watching the Lucic interview. What a beauty that guy is. Really thoughtful answers and it's clear the guy loves being a Flame. Takes his role as a leader seriously and really understands the elements it takes to be successful.

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by activeStick

Just finished watching the Lucic interview. What a beauty that guy is. Really thoughtful answers and it's clear the guy loves being a Flame. Takes his role as a leader seriously and really understands the elements it takes to be successful.

Yeah, Lucic is one of those guys who actually gives thoughtful answers to questions. For most players, their interviews are pretty much a waste of time.
He manages to say the right things while not being overly vanilla.

I thought Johnny and Markstrom had a pretty good interviews as well.

Lindholm said a few suspect things, but I wouldn't put too much weight into it. It might be a language/cultural thing. He performs on the ice, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. Tkachuk came across as a bit selfish and whiny, but he's normally pretty good at interviews during the season.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Presumably you have more than one star, so if you have a couple 30 goal scorers and a few more 20 goal men, they cover each other off. We are really talking top 6. I’d expect 70-75% of the offence from top 6 players, considering they are also the ones on the power play. Maybe 15-20% from the third line and my better Dmen, and then if I can get 10% of my goals from the 4th I’m good.

TB had 12 goals (out of 180 total) from their present bottom 4. Canes had 14 of 175. Vegas, a team without a lot of elite firepower, had 11 of 190. Calgary was worse, and mixed up lines too much to analyze, but the best bottom 4 you could imagine - say Ryan, Ritchie and Leivo, scored 12 of out Calgary’s 155 goals. Obviously those guys each saw higher line duty, though so the analysis is flawed. That said, put that exact line together and I could see 12 goals anyway. 4 goals apiece? Sure.

BUT Calgary is not getting anywhere with none of the top guys scoring 20 in 56. Winnipeg is a pretty meh PO team and they had 3 guys over 20. Only Nashville and the Isles didn’t have any 20 goal men. And I sure doubt they get past the first round.

So what do you do if you're the Flames? Who is trading us a 30 goal scorer in exchange for a 20 goal scorer? And we can't take on more salary in a trade either.

Trade quantity for quality somehow? Where is our depth from which we can do this?

[activeStick]

Yeah. Johnny appeared very genuine in his interview and this city should be proud that a star who loves his hometown as much as he does and is as close to his family as he is, speaks so highly of Calgary and wants to stay here long term. Also speaks to the quality of the people on the team and throughout the organization, in my view.

Really enjoyed Markstrom being so critical of himself and not using his injury as an excuse for his poor stint. He's only been here for a year so I imagine he isn't too vocal yet in the room but hopefully he'll feel like he's ready to be a voice in the room because he screams leadership and accountability to me.

When I heard Lindholm saying the team thought it was going to be easy, I think he means that the team was too confident in itself to start the season and Lucic touched on this a bit too when he went through the first 3 games of the year and how good the Flames were. I didn't think it was that bad of a comment to make, but that's just me. I'm hoping that the results of this year humbles those who got over confident after the 3 games and they learn from this.

I touched on Tkachuk earlier, but he talked about not getting icetime because he was asked to speak on the adjustments he had to make and what changed when Sutter was brought in. To me, he answered the question and I honestly didn't see it as that big of a deal. He mentioned a number of times that he needed to be better and was accountable for his play.

[Calgary4LIfe]

The 'easy' part was also mentioned by Lucic right before Ward was fired (or was it right after? I forgot). He said (more or less) that "This team expects things to be easy".


I hear that and I think "poor culture and lack of accountability". That's on Gulutzan, Peters and Ward in my opinion. I don't think you need to be a hard ass coach to make people accountable. You don't need to be screaming in their ear or making threats.


You can be a good players' coach type who comes in, sets out the rules, makes practices up-tempo and changes the culture to one that is all about hard work and supporting one another in working harder. Make it contagious. Celebrate it.



If a player is not living up to the standard that you set, you cut his minutes down. You don't need to be a hard ass coach to do that. You just need to make the culture one of accountability, and ONLY the coach can do that.


That's why I shake my head at some people who think that Giordano is somehow to blame for the culture. What do you expect him to do? Start knee-capping guys in the dressing room between periods saying: "you aren't working hard enough, so you are going to sit for the rest of the game!"?


Giordano is a fricken amazing captain because you don't see him take a shift off. Yeah, he isn't as great as he was last season, but he is still pretty great, and he has always been the epitome of how you want your players to play - hard and responsible 100% of the time.

[DeluxeMoustache]

I have to admit, I don’t get the ‘thought it would be easy’ thing

That may hold water for a few games. But in mid Feb, they lost to Vancouver, Edmonton back to back, split with Toronto and got pounded by Ottawa.

At that point, did they still think it was going to be easy? Then they came out on the wrong end of a 5 of 6 series against Ottawa. All this had happened by mid March

They then had 2 more months of hockey to play. Were they shell shocked? Did they still think it was going to be easy over those next 2 months?

Holy crap, how dumb would they have to be?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I have to admit, I don’t get the ‘thought it would be easy’ thing

That may hold water for a few games. But in mid Feb, they lost to Vancouver, Edmonton back to back, split with Toronto and got pounded by Ottawa.

At that point, did they still think it was going to be easy? Then they came out on the wrong end of a 5 of 6 series against Ottawa. All this had happened by mid March

They then had 2 more months of hockey to play. Were they shell shocked? Did they still think it was going to be easy over those next 2 months?

Holy crap, how dumb would they have to be?

Oh sweet summer child...I dont think we really want to know the answer to that question.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

So what do you do if you're the Flames? Who is trading us a 30 goal scorer in exchange for a 20 goal scorer? And we can't take on more salary in a trade either.

Trade quantity for quality somehow? Where is our depth from which we can do this?

I’m afraid there’s no good answer for this, short term. The real solution is to tank for 2022 and 2023 drafts and hope for franchise players.

But maybe that’s too negative. If you can get Eichel for Tkachuk ++ maybe you can have a top line better than a lot of teams. And maybe a Lindholm centred 2nd line is better than quite a few second lines. Especially if you can manage a MOnahan for RW trade. I know Backlund is better than a lot of 3Cs. Maybe some of the kids can come up with goos play and winning attitudes

Defensively I have confidence that Andersson has a better year. Gio could be taken in expansion, or Kylington. If Gio goes, there’s an opening for a good defenceman and also cap space.

Gaudreau-Eichel-new RW
Mangiapane-Lindholm-Dube
Lucic-Backlund-Pelletier
Zary-Ruzicka-Ritchie or someone
Phillips

Gio (someone like maybe Barrie if Gio goes)-Tanev
Hanifin-Andersson
Valimaki-Stone (Kylington if Gio goes)

Markstrom
There are plenty of decent backup goalies available next year

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I have to admit, I don’t get the ‘thought it would be easy’ thing

That may hold water for a few games. But in mid Feb, they lost to Vancouver, Edmonton back to back, split with Toronto and got pounded by Ottawa.

At that point, did they still think it was going to be easy? Then they came out on the wrong end of a 5 of 6 series against Ottawa. All this had happened by mid March

They then had 2 more months of hockey to play. Were they shell shocked? Did they still think it was going to be easy over those next 2 months?

Holy crap, how dumb would they have to be?

I wonder if this has more to do with fitness, and the way they were practicing. Flames tend to fold easily which may be a conditioning issue? We also seem to be seeing different players on different seasons who appear to be a step behind.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I’m afraid there’s no good answer for this, short term. The real solution is to tank for 2022 and 2023 drafts and hope for franchise players.

But maybe that’s too negative. If you can get Eichel for Tkachuk ++ maybe you can have a top line better than a lot of teams. And maybe a Lindholm centred 2nd line is better than quite a few second lines. Especially if you can manage a MOnahan for RW trade. I know Backlund is better than a lot of 3Cs. Maybe some of the kids can come up with goos play and winning attitudes

Defensively I have confidence that Andersson has a better year. Gio could be taken in expansion, or Kylington. If Gio goes, there’s an opening for a good defenceman and also cap space.

Gaudreau-Eichel-new RW
Mangiapane-Lindholm-Dube
Lucic-Backlund-Pelletier
Zary-Ruzicka-Ritchie or someone
Phillips

Gio (someone like maybe Barrie if Gio goes)-Tanev
Hanifin-Andersson
Valimaki-Stone (Kylington if Gio goes)

Markstrom
There are plenty of decent backup goalies available next year

I appreciate the effort in trying and agree there is some potential with that lineup. I see a couple of challenges.

Eichel would be a great, but realistically a huge longshot. The Tkachuk ++ is also what I would do, although the + is probably significant. I assume draft picks so you're mortgaging the future. I would do it personally because Eichel could be turned back into picks down the road.
I'd love it if Monahan could be turned into picks (the + in the Eichel trade for example). But more likely he could be dealt for a player with similar cap and question marks.
I think we're looking at another year of dumpster diving for bottom roster players. I don't see Zary, Pelletier ready next year. I don't know if Ruzicka is an NHLer and I don't know if any other forward in Stockton ever will be.

But the essence of the challenge is that if we want to upgrade the forwards through trade, it's going to take a significant ++ to do it. Since we have no depth, it has to mean draft picks. IMO that's the reality of the offseason.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I appreciate the effort in trying and agree there is some potential with that lineup. I see a couple of challenges.

Eichel would be a great, but realistically a huge longshot. The Tkachuk ++ is also what I would do, although the + is probably significant. I assume draft picks so you're mortgaging the future. I would do it personally because Eichel could be turned back into picks down the road.
I'd love it if Monahan could be turned into picks (the + in the Eichel trade for example). But more likely he could be dealt for a player with similar cap and question marks.
I think we're looking at another year of dumpster diving for bottom roster players. I don't see Zary, Pelletier ready next year. I don't know if Ruzicka is an NHLer and I don't know if any other forward in Stockton ever will be.

But the essence of the challenge is that if we want to upgrade the forwards through trade, it's going to take a significant ++ to do it. Since we have no depth, it has to mean draft picks. IMO that's the reality of the offseason.

I still like The Athletic’s proposed Tkachuk + Zary + 1st for Eichel. I think it’s good value on both sides, a steep price by the Flames.

…and ultimately removes a slow player in Tkachuk while giving us an elite #1 centre.

I think my dream off-season is Eichel + a Gaudreau extension, and Backlund to Seattle.

Centre depth: Eichel, Lindholm, Monahan.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I still like The Athletic’s proposed Tkachuk + Zary + 1st for Eichel. I think it’s good value on both sides, a steep price by the Flames.

…and ultimately removes a slow player in Tkachuk while giving us an elite #1 centre.

I think my dream off-season is Eichel + a Gaudreau extension, and Backlund to Seattle.

Centre depth: Eichel, Lindholm, Monahan.

Would Seattle be interested in Monahan? Not for free obviously, but have them kick back a draft pick to us?

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I still like The Athletic’s proposed Tkachuk + Zary + 1st for Eichel. I think it’s good value on both sides, a steep price by the Flames.

…and ultimately removes a slow player in Tkachuk while giving us an elite #1 centre.

I think my dream off-season is Eichel + a Gaudreau extension, and Backlund to Seattle.

Centre depth: Eichel, Lindholm, Monahan.

If that's all it takes to get Eichel, which I think is a fair trade value wise for both teams, it really does change the short term outlook of the Flames. A complete renewal in their window to build and compete. Then you just find the supporting cast to complement those 3 centres (whether it's Backlund or Monhana that stays) and Gaudreau.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Joborule

If that's all it takes to get Eichel, which I think is a fair trade value wise for both teams, it really does change the short term outlook of the Flames. A complete renewal in their window to build and compete. Then you just find the supporting cast to complement those 3 centres (whether it's Backlund or Monhana that stays) and Gaudreau.

Gaudreau - Eichel - ?
Mangiapane - Lindholm - ?
Dube - Monahan - ?
Lucic - ? - ?
?

Giordano - Tanev
Hanifin - Andersson
Valimaki - Mackey
?

Markstrom
?

Assuming qualifying offers for Dube, Valimaki, and Mackey that leaves about $14M to fill the question marks.

Would still take a lot of good work from Tree.

[Two Fivenagame]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Gaudreau - Eichel - ?
Mangiapane - Lindholm - ?
Dube - Monahan - ?
Lucic - ? - ?
?

Giordano - Tanev
Hanifin - Andersson
Valimaki - Mackey
?

Markstrom
?

Assuming qualifying offers for Dube, Valimaki, and Mackey that leaves about $14M to fill the question marks.

Would still take a lot of good work from Tree.

Yup, back to chasing top 6RW depth. Bring back Lievo, Simon and Nordstrom for the win!!

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Two Fivenagame

Yup, back to chasing top 6RW depth. Bring back Lievo, Simon and Nordstrom for the win!!

Absent either Monahan or Backlund, you have some dollars for a decent RW.

I am only half joking but what if they try Kylington on RW? It’s not like it’s never been done. Wendel Clark, Brendan Smith, Pysyk, Mike Matheson, etc.