Alberta Politics Thread v2

[crazy_eoj]

Originally Posted by Muta

Yeah, my own work experience. The amount of city projects going on in Edmonton versus Calgary is night and day, and has been for the last several years. In my industry, the amount of projects a city undertakes - particularly the small to medium ones - is usually indicative of how well the local economy is doing given tax revenues.

For example, there's only been two city RFPs for buildings I've seen issued in Calgary over the last three years. Edmonton, on average, is releasing a new RFP a week, and they're for projects we wouldn't even DREAM of building right now in this city.

Wow, that anecdotal quote really has won me over.

I'll take Edmonton for $100 Alex.

Q: 1.6%

What is the amount Edmonton's GDP has decreased over the past 3 years?

How about Edmonton for $200.

Q: It's the Daily Double. And the answer is Edmonton is proud to be second to Calgary, in this category, at 7% to Calgary's 7.6%.

A: What is the unemployment rate, and the third highest in Canada.

Sometimes being a winner sucks....

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/dail.../t007a-eng.htm

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by crazy_eoj

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/dail.../t007a-eng.htm

Maybe I'm not reading this correctly, but how did you get GDP ratio numbers from the provided table? Where is the 1.6% coming from?

Also, we are not in a race with other provinces to see who can have the best employment rate, so relating it is pretty much a moot point. Wouldn't you agree?

[Muta]

Originally Posted by crazy_eoj

Wow, that anecdotal quote really has won me over.

I'll take Edmonton for $100 Alex.

Q: 1.6%

What is the amount Edmonton's GDP has decreased over the past 3 years?

How about Edmonton for $200.

Q: It's the Daily Double. And the answer is Edmonton is proud to be second to Calgary, in this category, at 7% to Calgary's 7.6%.

A: What is the unemployment rate, and the third highest in Canada.

Sometimes being a winner sucks....

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/dail.../t007a-eng.htm

How do those stats relate here? Edmonton is still spending money building projects on their own, it's keeping several important industries in this province busy. It's also laying the grounwork better to diversify and attract more tech firms (for example), better than Calgary has been doing. Showing a city's GDP doesn't tell the whole story in the slightest.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Muta

How do those stats relate here? Edmonton is still spending money building projects on their own, it's keeping several important industries in this province busy. It's also laying the grounwork better to diversify and attract more tech firms (for example), better than Calgary has been doing. Showing a city's GDP doesn't tell the whole story in the slightest.

Confirmation bias is a hell of a drug.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

A few examples here:

https://www.wd-deo.gc.ca/eng/19682.asp

Good point. If only we funded more francophone movies and conferences about development, I'm sure our economy would be doing better...

[crazy_eoj]

Originally Posted by Muta

How do those stats relate here? Edmonton is still spending money building projects on their own, it's keeping several important industries in this province busy. It's also laying the grounwork better to diversify and attract more tech firms (for example), better than Calgary has been doing. Showing a city's GDP doesn't tell the whole story in the slightest.

It tells a much better story than some anecdote. Edmonton's economy has been shrinking, period. Edmonton's the third highest unemployment rate in the entire country, period.

You've provided nothing to the discussion thus far beyond letting everyone know you personally are benefiting from the NDP. Once again, would LOVE to see anything to back up your opinions.

[oilyfan]

I love quotes by people who drive around a city - "oh man it's so busy around here!"

Instead, let's look at some data...

Calgary Major Projects: https://majorprojects.alberta.ca/#/?...pality=Calgary
Cost:$27.3B of $185.7B total
Projects: 158 of 666 total

Edmonton Major Projects: https://majorprojects.alberta.ca/#/?...ality=Edmonton
Cost:$26.4B of $185.7B
Projects: 146 of 666

[Muta]

Originally Posted by crazy_eoj

It tells a much better story than some anecdote. Edmonton's economy has been shrinking, period. Edmonton's the third highest unemployment rate in the entire country, period.

You've provided nothing to the discussion thus far beyond letting everyone know you personally are benefiting from the NDP. Once again, would LOVE to see anything to back up your opinions.

What do you want to see? In my industry and related industries, government investment is keeping many private sector people employed. I don't care if you think that's anectdotal, it's a real and happening in my world. Just because you don't see it or care, doesn't mean it's not there.

I've also provided a link in the previous thread about Edmonton's growing tech sector, which was my point on diversification.

Also, you are aware that diversification takes many years, not months... Right?

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by crazy_eoj

It tells a much better story than some anecdote. Edmonton's economy has been shrinking, period. Edmonton's the third highest unemployment rate in the entire country, period.

Where are you getting these numbers that its economy is shrinking? Source?

I'm finding information that Edmonton's GDP shrunk in 2016, but was back to real growth in 2017, 2018, and projected for 2019. Before that the GDP was growing the five previous years (2011-2015).

Sorry, I am not buying the economy shrinkage argument. Public sector shift? Perhaps, yes, but to contextualize that its shrinking is dangerous and false.

[oilyfan]

Originally Posted by Muta

Did it go down? If so, it still isn't enough.

Also, if O+G is so lucrative, why is the NDP / Calgary Economic Development trying to divest now? Why wasn't this done years ago? Edmonton is booming relative to Calgary right now and it's because they've got a more diversified business portfolio than Calgary does.

Edmonton is booming? With the 3rd worst unemployment in the country, oh man.
Edmonton is surviving on the back of government spending, upwards of 150,000 people in the Edmonton region are employed by the government, government agencies and AHS. No meaningful cuts were made in these sectors during the downturn, otherwise, the results would have been dramatically different. But a more diversified business portfolio, lol.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by oilyfan

I love quotes by people who drive around a city - "oh man it's so busy around here!"

Instead, let's look at some data...

Calgary Major Projects: https://majorprojects.alberta.ca/#/?...pality=Calgary
Cost:$27.3B of $185.7B total
Projects: 158 of 666 total

Edmonton Major Projects: https://majorprojects.alberta.ca/#/?...ality=Edmonton
Cost:$26.4B of $185.7B
Projects: 146 of 666

Ah yes, the Major Infrastructure map. Link to this one with an asterisk; it's notoriously inaccurate and out of date half the time.

But using that site, Edmonton has double the amount of government infrastructure projects going on than Calgary does... with more coming online in the future that isn't on that site yet.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by oilyfan

Edmonton is booming? With the 3rd worst unemployment in the country, oh man.
Edmonton is surviving on the back of government spending, upwards of 150,000 people in the Edmonton region are employed by the government, government agencies and AHS. No meaningful cuts were made in these sectors during the downturn, otherwise, the results would have been dramatically different. But a more diversified business portfolio, lol.

It's booming versus Calgary. It's where all the work is right now for the AEC industries. Lots of firms doing that work aren't based in Edmonton either, just keep that in mind.

[belsarius]

I don’t even believe the public sector is driving the growth. The new jobs have almost all been health and education, which is province wide. The ministries have been on a hiring freeze since Redford was premier. And This 60k jobs from the NDP is seriously wrong. You check the SEPH data and it agrees with the government reporting of around 20k FTEs since the NDP took power

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Remember last year when we diversified into cryptocurrency mines? Ah yes. good times.

Have you ever tried actual mining? Its a real bitch! Not to mention environmentally devastating both in stripping and refining the raw materials but also in the cost of lives both Human and Canary!

Then theres the burning....so much burning....

At least cryptominers are....well I assume in some sort of fashion they're likely at least somewhat less damaging. So +1 to the NDP there!

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Locke

Have you ever tried actual mining? Its a real bitch! Not to mention environmentally devastating both in stripping and refining the raw materials but also in the cost of lives both Human and Canary!

Then theres the burning....so much burning....

At least cryptominers are....well I assume in some sort of fashion they're likely at least somewhat less damaging. So +1 to the NDP there!

Yes, well, they are burning natural gas for electricity, so it's a real boost to the carbon reduction plan....oh, wait..

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by Muta

Link please.



The PCs should have had some foresight and invested in diversification years ago. Instead, they handed out useless 'Ralph bucks' and acted like the oil revenues would never end.

Edmonton is attracting the tech industry and has been for several years more than Calgary; they have a much larger tech scene there. This is an industry that Alberta cities should be looking at going forward given it's global reach.

EDIT: Edmonton Journal article: "'Edmonton's an obvious choice': Google acknowledges surging tech industry, offers digital skills training to entrepreneurs"

https://edmontonjournal.com/business...-entrepreneurs

You'd just ignore my link like you ignored the first time when I tried to tell you that diversifying and economy is difficult.

And I really don't understand how you can chide the Provincial government for not finding the "Diversify Economy" button but at the same time point to a city in the same Province that is supposedly doing so much better. It's not coherent. The major difference between Calgary and Edmonton is one is the seat of Government and one is not. Also that article pointing out how much better Edmonton is doing in regards to tech hilariously contains this quote:

After graduating from the University of Alberta with degrees in computer science and economics, Jones worked for the university for four years before landing a gig at Google. Many others he knows in the industry moved to Calgary or elsewhere with more tech opportunities, he said.

I'm not disagreeing with you that we should diversify, or that O&G is volatile, you're right. It's just not easy and you keep saying it like it's so obvious. Edmonton is doing better right now because of the public sector. That's great for them but it's not true economic diversity and it's not sustainable.

[CorbeauNoir]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Yes, well, they are burning natural gas for electricity, so it's a real boost to the carbon reduction plan....oh, wait..

You're welcome to toss out your electronic devices at any time

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by CorbeauNoir

You're welcome to toss out your electronic devices at any time

My electronic devices at least provide something useful. Mining bitcoin does not. It is literally throwing away energy on an artificially difficult problem.

[Handsome B. Wonderful]

Originally Posted by belsarius

I don’t even believe the public sector is driving the growth. The new jobs have almost all been health and education

Wait, what? Did you not think before typing that?

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by Handsome B. Wonderful

Wait, what? Did you not think before typing that?

Yup.

Since most of the hiring in education and health then most of those jobs are not focused in Edmonton, but around the entire province. Sure there are some added jobs in Edmonton because of the offices, but it isn’t only Edmonton that needed teachers aides or retirement homes. If hasn’t been middle managers in an office being hired, but nurses and teachers aides.

Secondly, it may not be a diversification issue, but a demographic difference that is a driver of the difference in Edmonton and Calgary. Where Calgary’s main job losses were white collar office jobs, Edmonton has more tradespeople. In a downturn it’s the trades that can find more work, I need my toilet unplugged more than an HR rep. That in itself would give Edmonton’s economy an edge on Calgary’s for recovering.

So yeah, I think the public sector isn’t what’s solely driving Edmonton’s economic growth. It isn’t as if the NDP hired 60,000 people to sit in a desk in an Edmonton office.