A Song of Ice and Fire **Spoilers** Now more TV talk!

[Bigtime]

Originally Posted by Hanni

This was my feeling about most of book 4, along with most of what happened with Brienne.

I think the main purpose of POV Brienne in book 4 was to show the effects of the war in Westeros, all our other viewpoints have been "big picture" before we got our boots on the ground with her. That and we find strong evidence that Sandor Clegane is alive and living on that monastery island.

I do get the frustration with her POV, as she is going off on a mission that we know is hopeless (finding Sansa). So it is hard to really get into her story if you focus on only that.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Boblobla

The storyline I didn't understand as a POV character was the dornishmen one. I don't understand why we had to read his chapters when he ended up with his face melted anyway.

I think that describes the whole series. He spends FAR too much time creating intricate plots and foreshadowing and investment for characters that end up dead, while the actual overreaching plot hasn't moved hardly at all.

Unless the end of the series is everyone dies and the long winter consumes the 7 kingdoms, then I'm ok with it.

[Hanni]

Originally Posted by photon

I think that describes the whole series. He spends FAR too much time creating intricate plots and foreshadowing and investment for characters that end up dead, while the actual overreaching plot hasn't moved hardly at all.

Not only that but in Brienne and the Dornish's case I simply don't care about the characters. You know from the outset that as characters they are minor yet they are getting chapter after chapter devoted to them.

[photon]

I find it difficult to care about any character now, you can only spend books full of exposition only to cut that thread so many times before I don't feel the need to care about any of them.

The only thing I care about anymore is the overall plot, and for that I could have basically ignored all but the first and most recent books.

[Tinordi]

Yup, GRRM's editor could have been much much much more ruthless. The fact that by the end of book 5 he's still expanding the universe is just bewildering and frustrating for the reader.

[Bobblehead]

I'm not sure he is expanding the universe as much as he is setting his final chess pieces in place.

I mean we now have Arya ready to assume her role as a super assassin.
Bran has found and is well on the way to learning to control his own set of powers.
Dany has a dragon that can carry her that she is learning how to handle.
The Golden Company is on Westeros.

Yeah, there seems to be a lot of expansion but if you look at it there appear to be many pieces now just about in position to push for a final gambit.

Martin has said his views about war is that there is a lot of horror and the heroes don't escape unscathed if they escape at all. And that it is rarely as straightforward as heroes are always good and enemies always black.

So while there does seem to be a lot of superfluous narrative, I get the feeling that it is intentional and reflects Martin's belief about what war is really like (98% boredom, 2% horror) and about (the petty squabbling of elite paid with the blood of real people).

[Handsome B. Wonderful]

Originally Posted by Boblobla

The storyline I didn't understand as a POV character was the dornishmen one. I don't understand why we had to read his chapters when he ended up with his face melted anyway.

Probably because Martin wanted to show people he could still kill POV characters without bringing them back to life somehow. Unfortunately, that meant we had to waste our time reading it.

[Tinordi]

But that's a pretty brief list of what's going in the world at this point, lets review the major unresolved plot points:

Bran, coldhands, Others, Benjen
War in the North
Jon and Melisandre
Stannis and Dreadfort
Theon, Asha
Griff, Targaryen, gold company
Catelyn, Jamie, Brienne
Sansa, Petr
Happenings in Dorne
Victarion, Euron
Blackfish
Arya
Cannibal Island, Davos, White Harbour
Cersei, Zombie Mountain, Varys
Tyrion
Dany and the Dothraki/free cities
Religious army

Just so many spinning plates. I concede though that I'm criticizing him to writting a very complex story which is also satisfying to be a part of. However, it will be a major achievement to tie these up in a satisfactory way. And I'm worried that there's just way too much going on for only two more books.

I had the same feeling going into the Revenge of the Sith movie. Basically the previous two movies didn't advance the story at all and we were left with the third movie to tick off all of the major story points making it a convoluted mess.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

I wouldn't be surprised to see Martin take care of many of those storylines in the same stroke.

I think the story will get easier in the last 2 books because storylines will finally begin to converge. Up until now, the storylines have tended to grow further apart with no clear indication of when they'll converge. I think we'll soon see a single chapter, for example Arya, that instead of being totally just about Arya, instead will have ties to one or many other storylines.

[photon]

Anyone who's read Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time will know what trying to resolve the myriad of plotlines to try and bring a series to something resembling a coherent end in two books is like.

And I'd argue Martin's series has more and more diverse things going on.

[Bigtime]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

But that's a pretty brief list of what's going in the world at this point, lets review the major unresolved plot points:

Bran, coldhands, Others, Benjen
War in the North
Jon and Melisandre
Stannis and Dreadfort
Theon, Asha
Griff, Targaryen, gold company
Catelyn, Jamie, Brienne
Sansa, Petr
Happenings in Dorne
Victarion, Euron
Blackfish
Arya
Cannibal Island, Davos, White Harbour
Cersei, Zombie Mountain, Varys
Tyrion
Dany and the Dothraki/free cities
Religious army

There is also Sam Tarly and his adventures down at the Citadel (with the whole possible plot of the Maesters being up to their own plan).

[Bobblehead]

I see a lot of those as all part of a big house of cards. As soon as a few are pulled a bunch more are going to collapse.

I know what you mean, I hope it is too convenient, but I just think some of those are going to find themselves coming together and 2 or 3 at a time are going to wrap up.

Although I wonder if there will be a few that never get resolved. It would seem to be typical Martin that he wouldn't want everything all settled since rarely are massive issue resolved without some sort of lingering issues. But on the other hand, at this point I could see him wanting to wrap it up enough that the rest of his life isn't spent being pestered for a final resolution.

[Bobblehead]

This episode really deviated from the books.

[J epworth]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

This episode really deviated from the books.

Yup, I agree with adding the Melisandre part because it's implied in the book that they are definitely boning anyways, and I guess this will explain the "shadow" that she births later on.

The Craster part I don't really understand, keeping with the books storyline would actually move the plot along faster, I just want them to get to the frostfangs. Now we are going to have another episode with Jon and Craster clashing, when none of this happened in the book.

[Tinordi]

Craster's horribly miscast in the series. Why would they totally ignore the description of him in the books? Would make for a much better character.

[#22]

^^^

Agree 100%. Not even close

[Rubicant]

Just a request:

Could we keep this thread just about the books as intended? I have read them all and come in here to read about different theories/viewpoints as well as news about the upcoming books.

I also PVR the TV series and watch them later, and even though I do know the plot I would rather not have the episodes 'spoiled'.

[Bigtime]

I think two threads for ASOIF serves well enough, just treat this thread as the "anything goes spoilers ahoy" thread for both the books and TV series. Having a third thread just starts to get confusing.

[Rubicant]

Originally Posted by Bigtime

I think two threads for ASOIF serves well enough, just treat this thread as the "anything goes spoilers ahoy" thread for both the books and TV series. Having a third thread just starts to get confusing.

I thought this thread was for the books and the other thread was for the TV series - which is why I'm avoiding that one.

[GP_Matt]

This thread is for people who have read the books to discuss the show and how it relates to the books.