Ongoing Residential Schools Tragedy Discussion

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Oh I get and understand the viotrol towards the CC. It's reprehensible what happened.

That has nothing to do with what Im saying though.

Just because we are mad and have hatred towards something or someone, does not mean we are allowed to light it/them on fire or deface their buildings.

Or if it is, then lets just have vigilante justice for everything and see how that turns out.

If we want true equality in this country, then lets treat everyone equally.

And has been mentioned, it would be really unfortunate if these criminal acts take away the support and awareness that is starting to happen for the indiginous members of this country. Something that is more than likely to happen if its not reigned in.

I will admit to being torn.

I see where those burning and vandalizing churches are coming from. I can completely get in that headspace. That being said, you are correct.

We are a nation of laws and vigilante justice is never a road to go down.

But again I get it "Peace, Order, and Good Government" has really let this population of our country down.

As someone has said earlier in this thread, there are many places in the word that have fallen into violence and chaos for less.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

I can't get on board with a sentiment that is essentially, "we're really lucky people haven't engaged in mass murder due to the historical failings of our government". Yeah, people engage in that behaviour elsewhere, but treating it like the expected reaction from a group of historically disadvantaged people is nauseating. I'm pretty cynical, I don't expect all that much from my fellow humans, but come on, we have to be able to clear that bar at least.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

I can't get on board with a sentiment that is essentially, "we're really lucky people haven't engaged in mass murder due to the historical failings of our government". Yeah, people engage in that behaviour elsewhere, but treating it like the expected reaction from a group of historically disadvantaged people is nauseating. I'm pretty cynical, I don't expect all that much from my fellow humans, but come on, we have to be able to clear that bar at least.

Yeah sorry, I wasn't saying that is the "expected reaction" and to be clear I abhor violence it only leads to more and more violence.

But I can understand how one gets there.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Oh I get and understand the viotrol towards the CC. It's reprehensible what happened.

That has nothing to do with what Im saying though.

Just because we are mad and have hatred towards something or someone, does not mean we are allowed to light it/them on fire or deface their buildings.

Or if it is, then lets just have vigilante justice for everything and see how that turns out.

If we want true equality in this country, then lets treat everyone equally.

And has been mentioned, it would be really unfortunate if these criminal acts take away the support and awareness that is starting to happen for the indiginous members of this country. Something that is more than likely to happen if its not reigned in.

Its a sign of the frustration they are feeling, that they have had to go this far. It's not all that dissimilar form the BLM actions. People can only take abuse for so long before they reach this level of action. If someone is that frustrated that they risk prison to try to get themselves heard, clearly it is extremely important to them. Nothing else has worked, so burning their house down feels like at act of desperation to me. Which I find pretty sad, but I can't sit here and really blame them at this point. We as Canadians should also take note at their level of frustration, and work as hard as we can to make sure they have some hope.

How else would you suggest they get the Catholic Church to acknowledge them at this point?

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Its a sign of the frustration they are feeling, that they have had to go this far. It's not all that dissimilar form the BLM actions. People can only take abuse for so long before they reach this level of action. If someone is that frustrated that they risk prison to try to get themselves heard, clearly it is extremely important to them. Nothing else has worked, so burning their house down feels like at act of desperation to me. Which I find pretty sad, but I can't sit here and really blame them at this point. We as Canadians should also take note at their level of frustration, and work as hard as we can to make sure they have some hope.

How else would you suggest they get the Catholic Church to acknowledge them at this point?

Sure...then lets send them to prison. Because what they are doing, regardless of reason, is completely illegal, puts innocent people in danger and in the end...accomplishes nothing but backlash against the very cause they are trying to get addressed.

As for the 2nd bolded...seriously?

the ONLY way to get acknowledgement is to burn buildings and truly endager others? That is both absurd and stupid to believe.

OK then....lets apply that equally to everyone who has a legitimate beef with someone else.

Hey......I know where the parents of a rapist live though they refuse to admit their son is a monster..... lets go burn down their house. That will show them.

How ridiculous is that?

Also, I think the pressure should be put on the feds since they were the reason these things existed to begin with and were the ones that put the church in charge of them. But I know most dont see it that way.

Clearly you think this stuff is OK...I dont and we can agree to disagree on that.

But this country is either a land based on law and order and equality for all, or it isnt. Make your choice.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by transplant99

10 more churches were targeted last night, all in Calgary. An attempt was made to torch one of them but was unsuccessful.

https://globalnews.ca/news/7996179/c...rch-vandalism/

So, at minimum, that's 17 places of worship that have been scenes of "vandalism".

Why is this not causing more outrage?

If these were mosques, this would be labelled up and down by media as hate crimes.

But because is Christianity/Catholocism that's being targeted, we get the much softer title of "vandalism"?

It's an interesting dichotomy IMO.

It’s also being done by people who are likely Catholics.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

How else would you suggest they get the Catholic Church to acknowledge them at this point?

The vibe I'm getting from you is the more churches are torched the better. Am I misreading?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Sure...then lets send them to prison. Because what they are doing, regardless of reason, is completely illegal, puts innocent people in danger and in the end...accomplishes nothing but backlash against the very cause they are trying to get addressed.

As for the 2nd bolded...seriously?

the ONLY way to get acknowledgement is to burn buildings and truly endager others? That is both absurd and stupid to believe.

OK then....lets apply that equally to everyone who has a legitimate beef with someone else.

Hey......I know where the parents of a rapist live though they refuse to admit their son is a monster..... lets go burn down their house. That will show them.

How ridiculous is that?

Also, I think the pressure should be put on the feds since they were the reason these things existed to begin with and were the ones that put the church in charge of them. But I know most dont see it that way.

Clearly you think this stuff is OK...I dont and we can agree to disagree on that.

But this country is either a land based on law and order and equality for all, or it isnt. Make your choice.

I do not think it is OK, I do think it is understandable. But you also couldn't put forth an alternative. So again, how else would you suggest they get the Catholic Church to acknowledge them at this point? If you can't think of any other options for them, what do you really expect? Again, this represents severe desperation and exasperation. Which is why it is understandable.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by zamler

The vibe I'm getting from you is the more churches are torched the better. Am I misreading?

Personally? Not torched, but I'd be happy to see them go the way of the Dodo. Time to move on from these damaging institutions. At least the Catholic Church, anyway. I don't really see them interested in redeeming themselves. They are aweful, and should go away.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Its a sign of the frustration they are feeling, that they have had to go this far. It's not all that dissimilar form the BLM actions. People can only take abuse for so long before they reach this level of action.

It is dissimilar though, and you've just highlighted why. Take what abuse for so long? What is the ongoing abuse that's still being taken in this case? The BLM protests were about ongoing acts of violence - "the police keep doing this to us, they're still doing it, it needs to stop, so we're going to smash these windows and set that Dairy Queen on fire". Obviously we had a lot of good (and some bad) debate about the merits of that position last year, but I don't think anyone was suggesting that there isn't an ongoing problem with policing in the USA leading to bad outcomes for black people on a large scale.

Here, there are two complaints. One is the behaviour of the people responsible for Residential Schools, including the Catholic Church. That behaviour has stopped. They are no longer engaged in the atrocities we're complaining about. There's no need to vandalize churches to get them to stop doing it - they already have. The second complaint is that they have inadequately apologized for, or addressed, the historical atrocities they've committed. Is that concern, about the Church's half-assed attempt to atone for its past failures, in any way a reasonable basis for vandalism, even if you think vandalism for ideology is sometimes acceptable?

My position was and remains that the vandalism, looting, violence etc. that occurred in response to Floyd and other similar events last year was not justified, but there is an obvious difference between the things these groups are concerned with. One is concerned with stopping what they see as an ongoing project of murdering people who look like them. The other is concerned with getting an adequate apology, and perhaps restitution (financial or otherwise) for conduct that stopped years ago. These are not analogous.

[Regulator75]

These people standing up against this bronze aged corrupt plague on our society, is much needed and I applaud them 100%

As they have every right to be upset, the multi-billion dollar catholic business needs to be held accountable along with it's government yes men.

I literally cheered and laughed when Notre-Dame was on fire.

Burn ALL the churches, every single one. They enslave minds, instill fear and brainwash the masses.

If you need religion for a moral guide, you lack sympathy and empathy.

Morality is doing what's right regardless of what you're told.
Religion is doing what you are told, regardless of what is right.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Regulator75

I literally cheered and laughed when Notre-Dame was on fire.

Congratulations, you're a sociopath.

I mean, ####, even if you're completely anti-religion - and I'm pretty anti-religion - anyone with a brain was saddened by that simply due to the loss of a historical monument and a beautiful building, regardless of whether that building has any meaning to you other than looking nice and having been there for a long time.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

It is dissimilar though, and you've just highlighted why. Take what abuse for so long? What is the ongoing abuse that's still being taken in this case? The BLM protests were about ongoing acts of violence - "the police keep doing this to us, they're still doing it, it needs to stop, so we're going to smash these windows and set that Dairy Queen on fire". Obviously we had a lot of good (and some bad) debate about the merits of that position last year, but I don't think anyone was suggesting that there isn't an ongoing problem with policing in the USA leading to bad outcomes for black people on a large scale.

Here, there are two complaints. One is the behaviour of the people responsible for Residential Schools, including the Catholic Church. That behaviour has stopped. They are no longer engaged in the atrocities we're complaining about. There's no need to vandalize churches to get them to stop doing it - they already have. The second complaint is that they have inadequately apologized for, or addressed, the historical atrocities they've committed. Is that concern, about the Church's half-assed attempt to atone for its past failures, in any way a reasonable basis for vandalism, even if you think vandalism for ideology is sometimes acceptable?

My position was and remains that the vandalism, looting, violence etc. that occurred in response to Floyd and other similar events last year was not justified, but there is an obvious difference between the things these groups are concerned with. One is concerned with stopping what they see as an ongoing project of murdering people who look like them. The other is concerned with getting an adequate apology, and perhaps restitution (financial or otherwise) for conduct that stopped years ago. These are not analogous.

By refusing to acknowledge the TRC reports and their obligations under it, and their payments they bailed on. Failing to take responsibility and publicly apologizing. The abuse is mental at this point. By not cooperating with investigations and releasing all documents they have, they continue the abuse. How can they be expected to heal when the perpetrators of their abuse continue to act this way?

[zamler]

Originally Posted by Regulator75

I literally cheered and laughed when Notre-Dame was on fire.

Unless you're trolling this is very concerning.

[Regulator75]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Congratulations, you're a sociopath.

I mean, ####, even if you're completely anti-religion - and I'm pretty anti-religion - anyone with a brain was saddened by that simply due to the loss of a historical monument and a beautiful building, regardless of whether that building has any meaning to you other than looking nice and having been there for a long time.

Nope, zero f's given. Just because it's "pretty", it's still a crowning jewel for the catholic church.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by Regulator75

Nope, zero f's given. Just because it's "pretty", it's still a crowning jewel for the catholic church.

Would be much better if a bunch of Catholics were in these burning churches, right? What ever it takes to right those wrongs.

[timun]

Originally Posted by transplant99

10 more churches were targeted last night, all in Calgary. An attempt was made to torch one of them but was unsuccessful.

https://globalnews.ca/news/7996179/c...rch-vandalism/

So, at minimum, that's 17 places of worship that have been scenes of "vandalism".

Why is this not causing more outrage?

If these were mosques, this would be labelled up and down by media as hate crimes.

But because is Christianity/Catholocism that's being targeted, we get the much softer title of "vandalism"?

It's an interesting dichotomy IMO.

There's a significant distinction between:

1. people painting slogans like "our lives matter", "we were children", and bloody handprints symbolizing the children who died at church-run schools, and,
2. someone 'tagging' a building with "#### Syrea, kill musilums [sic]" and Celtic crosses (this was indiscriminately painted at Tuscany LRT station a few years ago)

One is reminding the churches (particularly the unrepentant Catholic Church) of their culpability in the deaths of thousands of innocent children, while the other is an indiscriminate call for violence against people of a particular religion.

Arson is obviously not acceptable, but frankly I'm not going to shed a single tear over churches having metaphorical blood spilled on them.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Spoiler!

I am going to assume $0 in contributions from you?

You can't completely separate the Canadians from the Canadian government I mean are they Canadians but not of the Canadian Government?

Yeah the church sucks, but again the issue is that Canadians didn’t care 150 years ago, or 100 years ago, or 50 years ago, or 10 years ago or 5 years ago and won’t care 1 year from now.

When is the last time anyone in Canada voted on religious issues. I mean most Canadians didn’t know these dead kids existed even though it’s been very public since 2015 and well known before hand if you cared to pay attention. This non payment problem started in 2005 and the court case people are talking about is in 2012. And now people care? There was no Calgarypuck thread on it then because no one cared. Not Catholics, Not Canadians.

But no let’s blame the church and it’s parishioners so we can all feel better. A parishioner of the Catholic Church has no more responsibility than any other Canadian. And every Canadian has failed to make this an issue and every Canadian has contributed to the racism against indigenous people.

So when you blame Catholics and not the institution because they continue to fund and go to church well that to me reeks of deflection and hypocrisy when in general Canadians dont care and in October the treatment of Indigenous people won’t matter at all when we are electing a government.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

By refusing to acknowledge the TRC reports and their obligations under it, and their payments they bailed on. Failing to take responsibility and publicly apologizing. The abuse is mental at this point. By not cooperating with investigations and releasing all documents they have, they continue the abuse. How can they be expected to heal when the perpetrators of their abuse continue to act this way?

All of those are bad things, yes. But I don't agree that they amount to "continuing the abuse". There is an enormous difference - worlds apart - between the abuse that was committed and the things that are being done now to fail to acknowledge or deal with it. Those can't be conflated, the one is not a continuation of the other.

I certainly understand how upsetting it is that the Church isn't releasing information or paying what they should be paying in restitution, or that their past apologies for this conduct aren't satisfying, but a) that isn't in any way comparable to the crimes it actually committed, and b) in my view, at least, is nowhere near enough to justify going around vandalizing and burning churches.

The argument about whether I'm right about "b)" is probably academic anyway. Let's face it, people aren't really vandalizing and burning churches to try to spur some action by the Church itself. They're just angry, and want to express that anger by doing some damage to the entity that's making them angry. It's not really complicated. It's understandable, as you've said - human beings do this stuff. But it's not reasonably defensible.

[Regulator75]

Originally Posted by zamler

Would be much better if a bunch of Catholics were in these burning churches, right? What ever it takes to right those wrongs.

They'd be closer to their imaginary and invisible sky daddy.

Everyone wins.