Acts of Terrorism in Edmonton: Officer stabbed, pedestrians run down

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by AltaGuy

My main issue with the "blame Islam" posts is the attempt to make this person an "other". Islam has many issues, and I think it's totally valid to bring them up in this context, but the discussion around sending him back where he "came from" and the labeling of immigration/immigrants from particular places or cultures or religions as unacceptable is bigotry.

There are many thousands of people from the same place and same religion as he is living in Alberta and Canada peacefully, and they make up part of our country and are just as Canadian as anyone else. We have a justice system that will deal with him as an individual, and take into account the hate and religious motivations at play in this tragedy for him.

Beyond that, painting innocent Canadians who may share some characteristics with this man as "others" should be avoided and leads to a lot of harm. Islam/islamicism is an incredibly difficult topic, but shunting the blame onto unrelated people is dangerous.

While I agree with the above, it is also dangerous in my view to quickly lump "discuss Islam" with "blame Islam" which is also often done. I think there are some legitimate issues that should be openly discussed, without fear of being outed as an Islamaphobe.

In this case, I would like to learn more about this guy's motivation. I don't think simply having an ISIS flag is enough, but there are suggestions that he was known to have radicalized ideas. How those came about are important to learn about and to discuss.

[Flash Walken]

I can't believe a guy who routinely courts race baiting, white supremacy and islamaphobic videos, messaging and propaganda is still allowed to spread it on this forum.

[AltaGuy]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

While I agree with the above, it is also dangerous in my view to quickly lump "discuss Islam" with "blame Islam" which is also often done. I think there are some legitimate issues that should be openly discussed, without fear of being outed as an Islamaphobe.

In this case, I would like to learn more about this guy's motivation. I don't think simply having an ISIS flag is enough, but there are suggestions that he was known to have radicalized ideas. How those came about are important to learn about and to discuss.

I agree with you - learning about how and why he was radicalized is an important topic, with benefits for the future. And Islam itself has aspects to it that give rise to this radicalization that should be freely discussed.

Making assumptions about his motivations and influences before they are known by way of harmful and misinformed generalizations is the issue. A fixation on where he is from and wanting to send him "back there" is however a large telltale that lines are being drawn in people's minds that he and his community are not of us but apart from us.

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by AltaGuy

I agree with you - learning about how and why he was radicalized is an important topic, with benefits for the future. And Islam itself has aspects to it that give rise to this radicalization that should be freely discussed.

Making assumptions about his motivations and influences before they are known by way of harmful and misinformed generalizations is the issue. A fixation on where he is from and wanting to send him "back there" is however a large telltale that lines are being drawn in people's minds that he and his community are not of us but apart from us.

I welcome refugees to Canada, I'm glad we're a safe haven for a lot of people. But when someone takes advantage of our genrosity I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting them deported. That doesn't reflect back to Somalis or Muslims in general, just this one idiot who doesn't even deserve our jails.

Thanks to whomever posted that link to the EPS email, it's important to give officers the recognition they deserve in the face of so much anti-police bias across the continent.

[Ducay]

Probably riskier sending him back given Somalia's track record for stable government....

Let him rot at Edmonton Max

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I can't believe a guy who routinely courts race baiting, white supremacy and islamaphobic videos, messaging and propaganda is still allowed to spread it on this forum.

Considering hate speech is against the law, I’m surprised this is allowed on this forum. I know the laws against hate speech are fairly specific but some of the content has absolutely fallen within that realm from this poster, especially if you access the sources of the information.

It’s genuinely disturbing that someone can freely post that stuff, especially with the flimsiest of excuses (always “stumbling” upon it). Nobody accesses that much hate-group propaganda by accident. People have a hard enough time talking frankly about heated issues like the violence in Islam as it is, letting hate-propaganda spread in the midst of it makes it significantly more difficult.

[photon]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Considering hate speech is against the law, I’m surprised this is allowed on this forum.

Rather than reply here, I started a different thread:

https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=164094

Not just for PepsiFree, anyone interested is welcome to weigh in of course.

[Crumpy-Gunt]

Im a bit late to this thread.. I hope the officer and all victims make a full recovery.

Am I missing something here? Why do these alt-right posters feel like they are being prevented from discussing Islam?

Nobody is preventing you guys from discussing Islam. But nobody wants to have that conversation with you because you are right wing white nationalists or at the very least do a good job of giving that impression.

Nobody would stand for some of the rhetoric in this thread and others if it were aimed at any other minority or religious group. Jewish, Chinese, Christian etc.

We're at the point where we have posters quoting racist websites and getting away with it. But somehow the 'liberals' are preventing them from discussing Islam. These people pretend its all about the liberals and the political correctness, they joke about safe spaces and people being triggered. I dont understand your goal?

Its been open season on Islam and Muslims since 9/11. I dont think any religion has been so scrutinized since the early 1900s. Yet we have people bemoaning the idea that their right to freedom of speech is being encroached upon when a terrorist attack happens and they want to discuss it.

How much more free can people be to bash a religion of mostly tolerant, normal people.

Lets stop calling these people bigots and actually hear what they have to say. If they have anything to say.

What disturbs me is that these people can push the boundaries of hate speech and then claim the conversation on Islam is being stifled by PC liberals.

[Phil1111]

Originally Posted by Crumpy-Gunt

Im a bit late to this thread.. I hope the officer and all victims make a full recovery.

Am I missing something here? Why do these alt-right posters feel like they are being prevented from discussing Islam?

Nobody is preventing you guys from discussing Islam. But nobody wants to have that conversation with you because you are right wing white nationalists or at the very least do a good job of giving that impression.

Nobody would stand for some of the rhetoric in this thread and others if it were aimed at any other minority or religious group. Jewish, Chinese, Christian etc.

We're at the point where we have posters quoting racist websites and getting away with it. But somehow the 'liberals' are preventing them from discussing Islam. These people pretend its all about the liberals and the political correctness, they joke about safe spaces and people being triggered. I dont understand your goal?

Its been open season on Islam and Muslims since 9/11. I dont think any religion has been so scrutinized since the early 1900s. Yet we have people bemoaning the idea that their right to freedom of speech is being encroached upon when a terrorist attack happens and they want to discuss it.

How much more free can people be to bash a religion of mostly tolerant, normal people.

Lets stop calling these people bigots and actually hear what they have to say. If they have anything to say.

What disturbs me is that these people can push the boundaries of hate speech and then claim the conversation on Islam is being stifled by PC liberals.

Quite correct.

A supporter of the Islamic State is NOT a follower of Islam and Allah.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

I understand that you are reluctant to ever agree with me but are you suggesting that 'acts of terror' committed in the name of God by white supremacists or those holding extreme Christian views get the same treatment and scrutiny?

I'd suggest in most cases the perpetrators of those crimes are written off as one-off nutjobs. Their stories typically don't last more than a few days.

Inept deranged Muslim kills no one - TERRORIST attack in Edmonton!!! We aren't safe on our streets!

Deranged old white man meticulously plans a slaughter and is successful killing 50+ innocents. He's just a one-off nut job. Not only that, some of the same posters labelling Islam as the religion of hate are actively arguing that this isn't a terror attack. Ask yourself. Which citizenry are more terrorized today? Edmonton's or Las Vegas? Denying this is just semantics.

[Crumpy-Gunt]

Considering the vast majority of ISIS' victims have been innocent Muslims. The people risking their lives to fight ISIS are Muslim. Its amazing to hear some conservative harper loving spin doctor who's read a book by sam harris and watched a few youtube videos on radical islam - sitting in his suburban house in Calgary, typing on his 2000 dollar laptop, in a free country; posing as some freedom fighter or revolutionary who wants to preach and wake everyone up to the imminent threat of global radical islam. Crying about people calling them bigots and stifling discussion.

As one poster put it - these people stumbled down a rabbit hole of ignorance. After hours of watching youtube videos and reading articles by the likes of Milo Yiannopolous, Stephan Molyneaux, The Saad truth, etc. They are now WOKE. They feel like the enlightened minority who sense an impending 'clash of civilizations' between the western world and 'radical islam' They are tasked with waking up the rest of us sheeple. Every terrorist attack - these threads have the same posters in them. "that pesky religion of peace again" "my dads going to say i told ya so at dinner" "thanks Trudeau". You guys are so silly. Everyone who likes your posts is just as lost.

Someone earlier in this thread said they are now afraid because of the attack in Edmonton. I am now afraid for our society. As one poster put it - the whole trump thing really acted as a dog whistle for these kinds of people. I used to think these people who view islam and muslims or other minorities negatively were a fringe minority. It seems like there are way more than I ever imagined. Facebook is a total disaster today. You can take the conservatives out of Alberta, but you cant change hundreds of years of ignorance.

[DiracSpike]

nm

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by Phil1111

Quite correct.

A supporter of the Islamic State is NOT a follower of Islam and Allah.

So, if we are willing to have a discussion on this, on what basis do you say that?

[Bawbag]

Originally Posted by Phil1111

Quite correct.

A supporter of the Islamic State is NOT a follower of Islam and Allah.

A Christian who kills isn't Christian and doesn't believe in god.

[flamesforcup]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

So, if we are willing to have a discussion on this, on what basis do you say that?

So are u a muslim...? How can u speak for a whole faith saying isis is inline with their beliefs? When suicide and killing innocents is literally forbidden in islam and its exactly what isis does.

[Burninator]

The no true Scotsman fallacy. Easy, but poor way to defend your "side."

[blankall]

Originally Posted by flamesforcup

So are u a muslim...? How can u speak for a whole faith saying isis is inline with their beliefs? When suicide and killing innocents is literally forbidden in islam and its exactly what isis does.

Stating that Islam (or any religion for that matter) is incapable of inspiring terror is just as ridiculous as stating that Islam always results in terror. These types of black/white ideologies are very dangerous. How does any ideology result in violence? How did socialist USSR end up killing millions of people and imprisoning millions more in the name of protecting the very same people it was persecuting?

There have been plenty of cases of young men converting to Islam (or a more radicalized sect than before), attending mosques, meeting radical Muslim preachers, becoming radicalized, and then committing a terrorist act. If that doesn't define a religion leading to terror, then what does?

Islam being against terrorism/suicide is no more true than Islam being for it. It's an ideology, and it can be warped into anything. There's no single definition of what any single religion is. Religion is a collection of individual's beliefs. Those individuals beliefs will change from day to day. There's some degree of centralization, but radical preachers demonstrate that there is variation within this centralization.

We should be extremely careful not to pain all Muslims with any one brush, but you have to acknowledge that there is a large (not saying anywhere near a majority) number of people supporting Islamic based terrorism, and that's an issue.

[TheIronMaiden]

it's obvious that when an offender is Islamic that gets pushed to the forefront of the discourse. The result of this is that other Muslims who do not support, know, or like the offender get scrutinized in their daily life. That is to say that when people defend or are sympathetic towards Muslims they are not defending the offender, rather they are trying to defend the innocent people who become the victims of people who think all Muslims are bad people.

For example a friend of mine who was born in this country, and lived here her whole life has been shouted at in public multiple times to "Go back to her own country". Moreover, she had been told to "kill herself". And this is a direct result of the rhetoric which implies that Muslims are scary outsiders rather than members of our communities.

So sure, some Islamic people hurt people, and that's bad. The odds are that they are bad people who happen to be Islamic. I am not suggesting that we ignore the fact that Islamic terrorism exists, rather I am suggesting to use some common sense and nuance.

[meritmat]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

I welcome refugees to Canada, I'm glad we're a safe haven for a lot of people. But when someone takes advantage of our genrosity I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting them deported. That doesn't reflect back to Somalis or Muslims in general, just this one idiot who doesn't even deserve our jails.

Thanks to whomever posted that link to the EPS email, it's important to give officers the recognition they deserve in the face of so much anti-police bias across the continent.

Be careful what you wish for, Europe welcomed refugees and look were at the problems there having

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by meritmat

Be careful what you wish for, Europe welcomed refugees and look were at the problems there having

I believe most refugees integrate quite well to our society, are eager to become Canadians, and add a lot to our national tapestry.

That's what makes this dickheads actions even worse, he's giving all refugees a bad name