I get that none of these are the burn it all down deregulation tactics of some right wing ideologs, but did we actually see a back to back to back endorsement of trickle down economics theory?
Ooooh, swung at a really bad pitch in the dirt. No, I'm for taxing corporations out of existence. Trickle down economics has been a massive failure for decades and only contributed to the greatest economic disparity in the country's history, and that takes a lot when you consider the conditions when the robber barons were plundering the country.
Ooooh, swung at a really bad pitch in the dirt. No, I'm for taxing corporations out of existence. Trickle down economics has been a massive failure for decades and only contributed to the greatest economic disparity in the country's history, and that takes a lot when you consider the conditions when the robber barons were plundering the country.
It was pretty obvious, I just didn't read it well.
My boss fancies himself a libertarian, which I consider to be the political ideology of people who are just engaged enough the believe they should have an opinion about economies, but not quite engaged enough to grapple with the consequences of their ideas, because the flaws in libertarianism are so glaringly obvious my 9 year old could figure them out on her own. So today I was left all primed up for a rant on what a real unconstrained market would like, which is pretty heavily regulated. I glanced a "Lower tax" "Lower tax" "Lower tax" and started my rant, without reading to much into the words.
(and it doesn't help when it gets tied up, you walk away for 5 minutes, and they're behind all over again, that also makes me want to rant)
Out of curiosity, what were you watching? It started coming up on Seth Meyers for us, which is on the one-hand a little weird because it's a pretty liberal show, but on the other hand obviously they're trying to disguise the leanings of their paper in the ads.
Jim Jefferies' I Don't Know About That podcast.
__________________ "It's a great day for hockey."
-'Badger' Bob Johnson (1931-1991)
"I see as much misery out of them moving to justify theirselves as them that set out to do harm." -Dr. Amos "Doc" Cochran
Ope I’m busted. I traded in my guillotine for a pair of reasonably priced khakis. Didn’t think anyone would notice.
Has 'ope' escaped the American midwest?!?!?!?!?!?
Just in case anyone hasn't seen this:
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by New Era
This individual is not affluent and more of a member of that shrinking middle class. It is likely the individual does not have a high paying job, is limited on benefits, and has to make due with those benefits provided by employer.
I get that none of these are the burn it all down deregulation tactics of some right wing ideologs, but did we actually see a back to back to back endorsement of trickle down economics theory?
I don't think I would consider my proposal trickle down given I proposed to force increased burdens on corporations, despite the proposed lower/maintain corporate tax rates.
Never heard anyone before consider mandated increases to minimum wage, or increased employee burdens paid by the employer as a trickle down theory.
Maybe my proposal is a hybrid, but to just label it as you have is a mistake and a way for you to handwave it away.
I am proposing government mandated re-directing corporate profits to .... employees.
The one thing from the stimulus plan I'm looking forward to the most, because it directly makes the work my agency does easier, is the changes to minimum wage. The rate increase is great, but a critical change is the end of tipped wages and 14(c) subminimum wage for disabled employees. Tipped wages is such a compliance nightmare!
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The one thing from the stimulus plan I'm looking forward to the most, because it directly makes the work my agency does easier, is the changes to minimum wage. The rate increase is great, but a critical change is the end of tipped wages and 14(c) subminimum wage for disabled employees. Tipped wages is such a compliance nightmare!
Tipping is such a mess, but it's also going to be a mess to undo.
I've seen the argument play out many times. Restaurants/bars/breweries should pay their staff a living wage, and not have them rely on tips and shame on business for treating their staff like this. The business moves to some kind of model of including tips and paying a proper wage. Customers scream that they shouldn't be forced to pay tips, or don't like the higher prices. Servers and other tipped staff quit or complain because they were making more like $40-50/hr on tips and now get a steady $15/hour wage and say thanks a lot!
It's probably time to undo that model, but it's going to take a way some profitable, accessible jobs from a lot of people. Also, it's going to be tough on independent restaurants who are barely surviving or not surviving through COVID.
A $15 min wage is going to be hard for a lot of small businesses to absorb in a lot of parts of the country. It's really not a good plan for a country that has such economic diversity. Big cities easily can absorb a $15 wage, and probably should be more like $20. Smaller, urban areas where cost of living is a tiny fraction, it will really affect the local economy.
If paying your staff a fair wage bankrupts your business then your business model sucks. Guess you shouldn’t hire anyone and work harder, that’s how this goes right?
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If paying your staff a fair wage bankrupts your business then your business model sucks. Guess you shouldn’t hire anyone and work harder, that’s how this goes right?
What's a fair wage? They are paying market wages for the area.
Businesses will go under in some areas, and people will lose jobs. Is that a good thing?
There are a bunch of states that have no tipped wage for their state minimum wage and tipping is generally the same there as it is in states without it. Sure, there will be people that stop tipping or dramatically drop their tips, but even restaurant organizations are coming around to it. We voted in DC to get rid of it, but the restaurant lobby got the council to overturn the vote. Jose Andres was on the wrong side that time, but he's now changed his tune along with some of the restaurant lobby.
There are so many issues in compliance and regulatory red tape that getting rid of tip credit clears away that the lobby is starting to see the point. That's not to mention the social justice aspects like the disparity in tips received based on race or gender.
Also, back of house staff need the raise so badly too because they miss out on most tips as pooling can be complicated to do in an FLSA compliant manner.
Last edited by tripin_billie; 01-27-2021 at 11:59 AM.
Tipping is such a mess, but it's also going to be a mess to undo.
I've seen the argument play out many times. Restaurants/bars/breweries should pay their staff a living wage, and not have them rely on tips and shame on business for treating their staff like this. The business moves to some kind of model of including tips and paying a proper wage. Customers scream that they shouldn't be forced to pay tips, or don't like the higher prices. Servers and other tipped staff quit or complain because they were making more like $40-50/hr on tips and now get a steady $15/hour wage and say thanks a lot!
It's probably time to undo that model, but it's going to take a way some profitable, accessible jobs from a lot of people. Also, it's going to be tough on independent restaurants who are barely surviving or not surviving through COVID.
A $15 min wage is going to be hard for a lot of small businesses to absorb in a lot of parts of the country. It's really not a good plan for a country that has such economic diversity. Big cities easily can absorb a $15 wage, and probably should be more like $20. Smaller, urban areas where cost of living is a tiny fraction, it will really affect the local economy.
The alternative is allowing businesses and business owners to be subsidized by the labour of poor people. That's outrageous to me.
Some businesses may fold, but they should if they can't raise their prices to offset their increased labour costs. Again, because a business's ability to survive shouldn't be based on exploiting the labour of poor people.
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There are a bunch of states that have no tipped wage for their state minimum wage and tipping is generally the same there as it is in states without it. Sure, there will be people that stop tipping or dramatically drop their tips, but even restaurant organizations are coming around to it. We voted in DC to get rid of it, but the restaurant lobby got the council to overturn the vote. Jose Andres was on the wrong side that time, but he's now changed his tune along with some of the restaurant lobby.
There are so many issues in compliance and regulatory red tape that getting rid of tip credit clears away that the lobby is starting to see the point. That's not to mention the social justice aspects like the disparity in tips received based on race or gender.
Also, back of house staff need the raise so badly too because they miss out on most tips as pooling can be complicated to do in an FLSA compliant manner.
Is there data on where min wage before tips goes from $2 to $15? That's what this would do in a lot of states. I'd assume restaurants would be forced to move away from tipping and get it included in the bill in that instance. I'm not disagreeing with you. I totally see the point and probably favor that model. It just seems like it is going to be messy and there should be some acknowledgement that the high tipping jobs will be a lot more scarce.
What's a fair wage? They are paying market wages for the area.
Businesses will go under in some areas, and people will lose jobs. Is that a good thing?
Again if the economic model is that exploiting labour enables your business to thrive it is a bad model. The answer is not to keep the same exploitative model in place because it might hurt the exploiters. This is hard to grasp huh?
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Is there data on where min wage before tips goes from $2 to $15? That's what this would do in a lot of states. I'd assume restaurants would be forced to move away from tipping and get it included in the bill in that instance. I'm not disagreeing with you. I totally see the point and probably favor that model. It just seems like it is going to be messy and there should be some acknowledgement that the high tipping jobs will be a lot more scarce.
It's not before and after, but it does show that California, where minimum wage depends on enterprise size (either $13 or $14), tipping is about average for the country. There clearly hasn't been a major drop because of the change. In the end, California servers are getting a way better deal than say DC servers.
That said, I don't have the employment data for before and after. I'd imagine that maybe restaurants are trying to have fewer servers, but that can only go so far before the quality drops and customers quit coming. I feel like quality threshold is a counterweight to the desire to trim labor costs.
Last edited by tripin_billie; 01-27-2021 at 12:25 PM.
Again if the economic model is that exploiting labour enables your business to thrive it is a bad model. The answer is not to keep the same exploitative model in place because it might hurt the exploiters. This is hard to grasp huh?
You just wrote down the definition of capitalism.
The whole point is to charge for labour more than the labour costs to create surplus value. It’s entirely about exploration of labour to provide return on your capital. It’s not like a “living wage” isn’t exploitive when an owner could be making over 1000 times that amount.
For example a person making a $15 an hour minimum wage isn’t paying taxes at a sufficient rate to cover the cost of the services spent on them so it’s not really a living wage. It’s just closer to one that 5 or 10.
The alternative is allowing businesses and business owners to be subsidized by the labour of poor people. That's outrageous to me.
Some businesses may fold, but they should if they can't raise their prices to offset their increased labour costs. Again, because a business's ability to survive shouldn't be based on exploiting the labour of poor people.
The problem I have is why is $15 this magic number that is the right number for the whole country? $15 is nothing in NYC, while it let you live very comfortably in Iowa.
If a small town economy is set up so that rent is cheap, food and other goods are inexpensive, then a big boost in min wage is going to disrupt that whole local economy.
Calgary has a $15 min wage, and when I go back there I am shocked at how expensive everything is. There are a lot of places in the US that $7-8/hour will go a whole lot further than $15 would in Calgary.
The problem I have is why is $15 this magic number that is the right number for the whole country? $15 is nothing in NYC, while it let you live very comfortably in Iowa.
If a small town economy is set up so that rent is cheap, food and other goods are inexpensive, then a big boost in min wage is going to disrupt that whole local economy.
Calgary has a $15 min wage, and when I go back there I am shocked at how expensive everything is. There are a lot of places in the US that $7-8/hour will go a whole lot further than $15 would in Calgary.
I agree that the Federal rate going to $15 would be tough, and that states could do this on their own. The problem is that there are some predictable states that won't. The quality of life disparaties between states is getting obscene.
It was pretty obvious, I just didn't read it well. 
