China in Another Lockdown?

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by activeStick

I think if the CPC goes and communicates an exit strategy, with timelines, the citizens will be happy. Like you said, the government there plays a much more paternalistic role (which the citizens appreciate, which leads to trust) which I get it, is hard for westerners with no ties to Asian culture to understand because its polar opposite from what our individualistic societies promote, but if the government can come out and say okay, here's the plan to actually get out of this situation, they'll calm down. Like I said I believe China has planned the first 2 years well - it's the exit they've effed up on.

Whatever ends up happening, my bet is on China being just fine. People would be surprised at how many protests actually happen annually across China since it goes completely against the western narrative about suppression, but if one looks into it, there are a lot of protests due to 1.5B people.

I'm sure China will be fine in the long run but its much harder to keep control of a population the more comfortable they become.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Azure

I swear we have CCP agents on CP who spread their lies every single time a China thread comes up.

Saying #### like this is just offensive and lowers the standard of discourse for everyone. It's a dumb thing to say.

[nik-]

Naw, he's right. There's definitely some tankies here.

[JohnnyB]

Calling people CCP agents. Calling people tankies. Peter12 once called a cp member a traitor just for sharing his own life experience in China.

Nobody who interacts like that deserves to be taken seriously on the topic at all. That's the kind of stuff that belongs on 4chan.

[nik-]

Naw, he's right.

[Fuzzy14]

Can't underestimate the risk of long-term health outcomes with an aging population bomb like China's.

They're already going to have their hands full over the coming decades caring for their elderly population, which would only be exacerbated by having them all have long-term damage resulting from COVID.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Calling people CCP agents. Calling people tankies. Peter12 once called a cp member a traitor just for sharing his own life experience in China.

Nobody who interacts like that deserves to be taken seriously on the topic at all. That's the kind of stuff that belongs on 4chan.

I called someone a traitor? That sounds pretty based.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by nik-

Naw, he's right.

Fortunately the world has lots of people capable of having good conversations from different points of view.

When you choose to throw around pejorative terms at people you disagree with, that's on you and says nothing worth listening to about the person you're directing those terms at or their ideas.

Originally Posted by peter12

I called someone a traitor? That sounds pretty based.

Actually, you called them a quisling, which seems in some way worse as it suggests that even as you were needlessly abusing another person you still felt the need to dress it up and seem clever instead of letting the words be as blunt as the intent. Whatever pool of insecurities that comes out of, it was a pretty low moment.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Fortunately the world has lots of people capable of having good conversations from different points of view.

When you choose to throw around pejorative terms at people you disagree with, that's on you and says nothing worth listening to about the person you're directing those terms at or their ideas.




Actually, you called them a quisling, which seems in some way worse as it suggests that even as you were needlessly abusing another person you still felt the need to dress it up and seem clever instead of letting the words be as blunt as the intent. Whatever pool of insecurities that comes out of, it was a pretty low moment.

Oh yeah, apologists for the PRC regime are quislings. It's kind of gross, honestly. I get you have had a successful life there and have close ties to your community, but give your head a shake sometimes. C

[blankall]

The question really becomes how long can you enforce a zero Covid-19 policy for? It's pretty obvious, at this point, that the virus is endemic globally.

[Monahammer]

I hope no one thinks I am part of a defense of the CCP here, I am not at all.

I do have chinese friends and family, the family being from Hong Kong. I think there is a tense situation everywhere right now around visible asian people in our communities being targeted by hate overtly, but partially it could stem from these subtle aggressions in places like this thread. I can appreciate some of what Johnny B says from that perspective. But it's easy to make a hard break: CCP = one of the most oppressive and brutal Oligarchial dictatorships on earth, currently engaged in mass societal and cultural suppression and straight up genocide in Xinjiang. Chinese people are in some cases direct victims of this.

Regardless of all of this or any position on the CCP, it is much too early, in my opinion, to declare a victory of our COVID policy when we KNOW there are knock on effects and we don't know the total scope or scale of these impacts.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Chinese people are in some cases direct victims of this.

By far the biggest victims of the Chinese regime are definitely the people within their borders.

(That whole post was great, by the way)

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

I hope no one thinks I am part of a defense of the CCP here, I am not at all.

I do have chinese friends and family, the family being from Hong Kong. I think there is a tense situation everywhere right now around visible asian people in our communities being targeted by hate overtly, but partially it could stem from these subtle aggressions in places like this thread. I can appreciate some of what Johnny B says from that perspective. But it's easy to make a hard break: CCP = one of the most oppressive and brutal Oligarchial dictatorships on earth, currently engaged in mass societal and cultural suppression and straight up genocide in Xinjiang. Chinese people are in some cases direct victims of this.

Regardless of all of this or any position on the CCP, it is much too early, in my opinion, to declare a victory of our COVID policy when we KNOW there are knock on effects and we don't know the total scope or scale of these impacts.

Ugghhh.... Can't believe I'm getting dragged into another COVID thread.

I think the point is that there is no victory. You either let it run rampant or you strangle people economically and socially. You have to find a balance and no matter what you do, there are consequences, both short and long term.

With vaccines readily available, there's no way a zero COVID policy is the right choice. It's quite clear that China is:

1. Refusing to swallow it's pride and use western vaccines; and
2. Is using the lockdowns and COVID to control it's population.

Claiming to be putting the health of your people first while simultaneously denying them western vaccines is a parodoxical position.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

I hope no one thinks I am part of a defense of the CCP here, I am not at all.

I do have chinese friends and family, the family being from Hong Kong. I think there is a tense situation everywhere right now around visible asian people in our communities being targeted by hate overtly, but partially it could stem from these subtle aggressions in places like this thread. I can appreciate some of what Johnny B says from that perspective. But it's easy to make a hard break: CCP = one of the most oppressive and brutal Oligarchial dictatorships on earth, currently engaged in mass societal and cultural suppression and straight up genocide in Xinjiang. Chinese people are in some cases direct victims of this.

Regardless of all of this or any position on the CCP, it is much too early, in my opinion, to declare a victory of our COVID policy when we KNOW there are knock on effects and we don't know the total scope or scale of these impacts.

In terms of where the bar is set.

Saying the CCP is not as bad as people in the west like to believe = you are a CCP shill, or bot, and IMO should get kicked from the forum.

Feeling emphatic for the Chinese people, especially if you have family members there, and understanding the societal differences = no issue at all.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Azure

In terms of where the bar is set.

Saying the CCP is not as bad as people in the west like to believe = you are a CCP shill, or bot, and IMO should get kicked from the forum.

Feeling emphatic for the Chinese people, especially if you have family members there, and understanding the societal differences = no issue at all.

I would say it's the people who are using terms like CCP shill, CCP agent, tankie, bot, quisling etc. that are the ones violating forum rules in attacking the poster and not the ideas. By all means, attack policies, actions, ideas you disagree with. There's plenty to be critical of. Using pejorative terms to label people isn't that.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

I would say it's the people who are using terms like CCP shill, CCP agent, tankie, bot, quisling etc. that are the ones violating forum rules in attacking the poster and not the ideas. By all means, attack policies, actions, ideas you disagree with. There's plenty to be critical of. Using pejorative terms to label people isn't that.

When you take sides with an oppressive, genocidal regime and basically parrot back its propaganda talking points, what would you like to be called?

There's a reason why the term "quisling" exists.

[opendoor]

LOL. Even despotic totalitarian regimes who abuse human rights can be the subject of misleading or flat out fabricated propaganda. Or have we already forgotten stories about Saddam Hussein having WMDs and Iraqi soldiers pulling Kuwaiti babies out of incubators? Pointing that out doesn't mean you're "siding with" Saddam Hussein, it just means you're thinking critically and recognizing that propaganda exists.

[pylon]

The terms "Orwellian" and "Dystopian Future" get thrown around far too much. In the case of China, they are completely appropriate, and their methods deserve to be called into question, and anyone defending those ideas outside their borders, deserves to be shunned.

Watching their Covid Police running around in non-descript uniforms and gas masks beating citizens, rounding them up to put in internment camps, beating stray dogs to death with shovels, having to show digital ID at any request, having cameras planted outside your apartment to surveil your every movement. Having every communication monitored by the government on apps presented as harmless with cute pictures of robot pandas on them.....

You could have renamed the CCP Covid Police the Combine, and boom, you have the much craved 15 year overdue, Half Life, Episode 3. It almost mirrors the horrific vision Valve had when it created Half Life 2. But this time, it's even scarier. It's not some interdimensional technologically superior alien force, it's your own neighbours being indocrtinated and brainwashed by its government to commit these acts. And it is actually happening. In the real world, not inside the confines of a hard drive.

And this is just Covid. Peter12 touches on many of the other issues, and their are many more to add on to that. Corruption, the goverment stealing housing down payments from it's own citizens through banks they were told to trust. Homophobia. Rampant racism against non-chinese that makes racism in North America look laughably mild. The list goes on and on.

The citizens of China need to make a decision. Are they going to live on their knees, or die on their feet. They need to fight for their freedom. And they need to overthrow their corrupt goverment that is forcing them to basically live in servitude.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

I mean it sounded like the original post that started this whole debate was really just trying to say that whatever you think of the Chinese government, they actually do care if 1.5 million Chinese people die and actually do want to avoid that outcome. That is, they're not indifferent about that sort of thing and it's a motivating factor in their over-the-top public health policy. Which... is probably true, I would think? That doesn't really sound like some defense of the regime.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by peter12

When you take sides with an oppressive, genocidal regime and basically parrot back its propaganda talking points, what would you like to be called?

There's a reason why the term "quisling" exists.

What I would like is for people to engage in actually thoughtful discussion rather than using pejorative labels. There are plenty of pejorative labels in the world. I don't think I've used any with you despite our disagreement and despite you never having shown an ounce of sophistication or depth of understanding on the topics of Chinese society, government, or culture while wading into the discussion throwing labels around at others.

People should be as critical as they want about the ideas, policies, actions, but keep it to the content rather than using pejorative terms to label people. People should also be open minded to the possibility of learning from someone they disagree with. You might up your game on the topic by doing so.

Do you want to stand on the side of people who are interacting civilly getting kicked from the forum because of their views, or even how their views may be mischaracterized?