Hong Kong

[Rando]

Originally Posted by AnonymousStranger

Ironic, no? You claim that I have no credibility just because I am brave enough to question the "China bad" narrative when you, yourself, have to respond to and correct an uninformed person posting grandiose claims and fabrications on a topic related to China .

Stop ignoring Fuzz.

[Fuzz]

I feel like Bruce Willis.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I feel like Bruce Willis.

Welcome to the party pal.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by nik-

Welcome to the party pal.

No, the other one. The dead one. Not the making others dead one.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by AnonymousStranger

Ironic, no? You claim that I have no credibility just because I am brave enough to question the "China bad" narrative when you, yourself, have to respond to and correct an uninformed person posting grandiose claims and fabrications on a topic related to China .

Someone who has established no credibility joining the conversation and acting like they know better than everyone else is ironic. Acting as though slighted by others while shaming yourself through your own performance is ironic. Failing to understand someone's critique of your assertions while acting as though you know better than them is ironic.

What's happening in Hong Kong is dramatic. It's awful for a lot of people. The government is killing the city.

You're a guy with no apparent skin in the game and no particular insight, but a strong opinion, insulting people and derailing discussion about something important to many people's lives. That's a ####ty thing to do.

What's happening in Hong Kong, how it's affecting people there and the implications for others dealing with China are important. They're real, and worth taking seriously. You may distract from that, but I will repeat it, because it is worth it to have more people hear and pay attention to the reality of what's happening and think about the broader implications.

[AnonymousStranger]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

What's happening in Hong Kong is dramatic. It's awful for a lot of people. The government is killing the city.

Oh so the government are the ones smashing up the subways/public infrastructure and businesses? The government are the ones gluing bricks to major public roads and throwing barriers onto roads and rail tracks and smashing up cars? Oh okay. Thank you for being more "informed" than me and "informing" me about the situation.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by AnonymousStranger

Oh so the government are the ones smashing up the subways/public infrastructure and businesses? The government are the ones gluing bricks to major public roads and throwing barriers onto roads and rail tracks and smashing up cars? Oh okay. Thank you for being more "informed" than me and "informing" me about the situation.

The government are the ones smashing up people.

[The Yen Man]

I'm only going to comment once more on this, as it's pretty obvious that people here are set in their opinions. Yes, I agree there are issues with China's government. But to act like all the protesters in HK are blameless in this is just wrong. I see the argument that anyone criticizing the protesters are China "bots" or "brainwashed" by Chinese state media, but if you actually talk to regular Chinese people, (and not just mainlanders, but also Chinese people that are from Hong Kong), there's a lot of blame to go around for both sides. It's not all on the feet of the Chinese government. And it is pretty obvious the western media has a clear bias towards one side. Google any news about it, and it's always on the side of protesters being the victims.

How do you defend the blatant racism now rampant among the Hong Kong people on how they treat mainland Chinese people in HK? These mainland people are just trying to live in the city and earn a living, yet they're openly being verbally and physically assaulted on a regular basis. I find it embarrassing as a person of Chinese decent that Chinese people in Hong Kong are being so openly racist against other regular Chinese people in the city. Have your issues with the government, fine. But that does not excuse all the racist rants and and actions these guys are doing on a daily basis. There is just so much vitriol towards mainland Chinese people, it's a bit sickening TBH.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

I'm only going to comment once more on this, as it's pretty obvious that people here are set in their opinions. Yes, I agree there are issues with China's government. But to act like all the protesters in HK are blameless in this is just wrong. I see the argument that anyone criticizing the protesters are China "bots" or "brainwashed" by Chinese state media, but if you actually talk to regular Chinese people, (and not just mainlanders, but also Chinese people that are from Hong Kong), there's a lot of blame to go around for both sides. It's not all on the feet of the Chinese government. And it is pretty obvious the western media has a clear bias towards one side. Google any news about it, and it's always on the side of protesters being the victims.

How do you defend the blatant racism now rampant among the Hong Kong people on how they treat mainland Chinese people in HK? These mainland people are just trying to live in the city and earn a living, yet they're openly being verbally and physically assaulted on a regular basis. I find it embarrassing as a person of Chinese decent that Chinese people in Hong Kong are being so openly racist against other regular Chinese people in the city. Have your issues with the government, fine. But that does not excuse all the racist rants and and actions these guys are doing on a daily basis. There is just so much vitriol towards mainland Chinese people, it's a bit sickening TBH.

I don't disagree with just about anything you've said. However, I do think the government ultimately bears responsibility because instead of pursuing a political solution to a political problem, they have left the police to deal with it and that has precipitated the downward spiral, which they are further fueling. I believe that is a conscious and strategic choice. It fits with the current tightening across China and the implications of what's happening in HK are much broader than just the impact on HK.

AnonymousStranger is trolling, but I also dislike the “China bot” attacks generally. That's clearly different from what you're doing.

I will also say, the discriminatory pushback against mainland Chinese that's growing is in large part attributable to how China handles itself at home and abroad, and the ethno nationalism promoted by the government. Media often sensationalizes this when they actually cover China issues, but there are substantive sources of concern from a Western perspective or a human rights perspective. I really dislike seeing this growth in anti-Chinese sentiment. It worries me, and I expect it to get worse.The CCP and Chinese people are not the same, but fear and discrimination typically aren't based on nuanced considerations and things happening with the CCP provide a lot of fuel for those fires of fear, hatred and discrimination.

Inside China, there's also a lot of discrimination. People in Guangzhou calling those coming central China barbarians used to be rampant too. There's a flashpoint of these types of sentiments in HK right now, but it's not unique to HK people.

[AnonymousStranger]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

I'm only going to comment once more on this, as it's pretty obvious that people here are set in their opinions. Yes, I agree there are issues with China's government. But to act like all the protesters in HK are blameless in this is just wrong. I see the argument that anyone criticizing the protesters are China "bots" or "brainwashed" by Chinese state media, but if you actually talk to regular Chinese people, (and not just mainlanders, but also Chinese people that are from Hong Kong), there's a lot of blame to go around for both sides. It's not all on the feet of the Chinese government. And it is pretty obvious the western media has a clear bias towards one side. Google any news about it, and it's always on the side of protesters being the victims.

How do you defend the blatant racism now rampant among the Hong Kong people on how they treat mainland Chinese people in HK? These mainland people are just trying to live in the city and earn a living, yet they're openly being verbally and physically assaulted on a regular basis. I find it embarrassing as a person of Chinese decent that Chinese people in Hong Kong are being so openly racist against other regular Chinese people in the city. Have your issues with the government, fine. But that does not excuse all the racist rants and and actions these guys are doing on a daily basis. There is just so much vitriol towards mainland Chinese people, it's a bit sickening TBH.

Shut up you 50-cent CCP shill. Don’t you realize that only non-Chinese people have a valid opinion here?

[AnonymousStranger]

Originally Posted by nik-

The government are the ones smashing up people.

Yep, the government are the ones smashing up the people with bricks to the head and killing them. Got it.

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/...k-during-clash

[GirlySports]

If the Chinese government wasn't so fragile to any sort of criticism large or small, I'd give them more credit.

[manwiches]

Originally Posted by AnonymousStranger

Shut up you 50-cent CCP shill. Don’t you realize that only non-Chinese people have a valid opinion here?

Bud, you need to take a vacation from your keyboard.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by AnonymousStranger

Yep, the government are the ones smashing up the people with bricks to the head and killing them. Got it.

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/...k-during-clash

Just tossing them out windows or disappearing them.

[FlameOn]

Hong Kong Executive Carrie Lam had an interview yesterday and made some very inflammatory remarks saying she "does not believe that there have been any cases of police brutality over the last 7 months. She only sees efforts to demonize/smear the police forces to weaken their law enforcement capabilities"

One of the remaining key demands by protesters was independent oversight into police abuses. Despite massive public support for this from protests and the election, she makes this statement. This is an abrupt change in stance because the HK government at least used to acknowledge an issue. Previously she had made a half-hearted attempt to ensure the "independence" on the panel to investigate the police abuses, but all the members quit in protest because of interference by the HK government and lack of any actual powers to conduct the investigation. She could not be any more transparent about being a CCP stooge.

行政長官林鄭月娥出席立法會行政長官答問會。林鄭月娥表示，不認同過去7個月出現警暴，只見到警隊維持治安 ，但過去數個月不斷有人抹黑及妖魔化警隊，意圖削弱警隊執法能力。

https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/ch/compone...7-20200116.htm

A panel of foreign experts overseeing an investigation into allegations of excessive force used by the Hong Kong police force has said it is stepping down, further calling into question the probe.

For months anti-government protesters have been demanding an independent investigation into allegations of police brutality in response to the demonstrations. The government has repeatedly said an independent inquiry is unnecessary and that the existing police watchdog, the Independent Police Complaints Council (IPCC), should complete its review first.

But on Wednesday the group of foreign experts recruited to ensure objectivity in the probe said in a statement that they would be formally standing aside after discussions with the IPCC failed to result in “any agreed process” through which the [IPCC] would be able to conduct an effective investigation.

The experts said the IPCC lacked the powers necessary “to meet the standards citizens of Hong Kong would likely require” in a society that “values freedom and rights”.

“While we assessed that meaningful progress had been made in data collection and analysis, we ultimately concluded that a crucial shortfall was evident in the powers, capacity and independent investigative capability of IPCC,” the panel said, according to the South China Morning Post.

Experts on the panel had previously cast doubt on the police watchdog’s ability to deliver an objective investigation and called on the government to grant it more powers. The IPCC cannot summon witnesses or force the police to hand over evidence.

The decision by the foreign panel to quit is likely to heighten protesters’ demands for an independent probe. The IPCC is meant to give its full report in late January, in hopes of helping resolve more than six months of protests in the Chinese territory.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...lack-of-powers

[AnonymousStranger]

“Panel of foreign experts to investigate police brutality” BWAHAHAHAHAH don’t make me laugh. Would France allow foreigners to interfere in their domestic police issues as they currently beat up protestors on a daily basis? Would America allow foreign interference in their domestic police issues and they brutalize and kill black folk on a daily basis? The west is hypocritical beyond belief. They think they should have a say, if not complete control in all issues outside of their own countries but don’t allow a single dissenting word when it comes to criticism or outside interference for their own countries.

[FlameOn]

You aren't very good at reading are you? The foreign panel was in Hong Kong By the Hong Kong Government's own invitation because they have a credibility problem with their own citizens. This is like asking the UN to oversee your own elections so you can become a legitimate regime but then interfering with the election results while everyone is watching. Go home 五毛. Everyone sees through your crap here.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by AnonymousStranger

“Panel of foreign experts to investigate police brutality” BWAHAHAHAHAH don’t make me laugh. Would France allow foreigners to interfere in their domestic police issues as they currently beat up protestors on a daily basis? Would America allow foreign interference in their domestic police issues and they brutalize and kill black folk on a daily basis? The west is hypocritical beyond belief. They think they should have a say, if not complete control in all issues outside of their own countries but don’t allow a single dissenting word when it comes to criticism or outside interference for their own countries.

Another bad post showing you're not credible.

The false equivalency you're trying to draw is terrible. Dissenting voices are common and accessible in most Western countries. China does not even allow dissenting voices internally. You can't even discuss criticism of government policies or controversial topics in private wechat groups in China. There is a massive difference.

Power anywhere tries to protect itself, but the right to show and voice dissent is foundational to power not being abused without limitations. Of course, any country is resistant to ceding sovereignty on internal issues, but dissent and transparency are fundamental to keeping that power in check. France, as bad as things have been there, has not blocked sharing views critical of the police, or blocked foreign or domestic news and opinions critical of police and government, or the sharing of information that makes them look bad. Macron just spoke out critically about police ethics in France. In China, you wouldn't even have access to those critical views, whether foreign or domestic, and you wouldn't be able to promote or discuss them yourself online without concern.

Furthermore, HK is a city where the whole economy has been founded upon reliable rule of law. If not for that, HK would never have become what it is. The sacrifice of rule of law and transparency in HK is the death of HK. It will harm HKers terribly. And, it is the people of HK themselves who are calling for independent investigation, not some foreign actors. Whitewashing the situation with false equivalencies just reflects your bias.

Honestly, you are doing a disservice to Chinese people by posting this way. You cast Chinese people in a negative light by acting like a 五毛 with little respect for other posters or the issues being discussed. Your posts are more likely to result in increasing anti-Chinese sentiment. Your posts and posting style do much more service to those who would like to see anti-Chinese sentiment grow than it does to people who would like to see more diverse and disagreeing voices heard and listened to. This thread needs more posts from people like The Yen Man or the many, many well-educated, cultured, intelligent Chinese of the mainland, HK and internationally who can share a disagreeing point of view in a reasonable and mature way. It doesn't need more mocking, uninformed and poorly reasoned trolling.

[nik-]

You guys are making the mistake of earnestly trying to engage him. He doesn't care about retorts or facts. His position is to spam talking points and ignore responses. It's why he tries to comically play the racism card so often. He's trying to inject emotion and irrationality into the discussion.

This type of crap has taken root on so many communities on the internet and it should be rejected here. Outright. Deride him, laugh at how blatantly transparent he is, but don't waste your time rebutting, he doesn't care. People that have access to multiple sources of information already understand all the points you're making.

[JohnnyB]

I appreciate where you're coming from, but I also dislike seeing a thread that's on a serious topic getting filled with posts that are just mocking a troll. I would rather still write and read posts that have substance and might help people to understand the HK and China issue better while confronting trolling. I'm not just writing to him alone.