The movie as a whole isn't mediocre, but it's lifted above mediocrity by last half hour or so, which on the other hand is arguably the best half hour in any Star Wars movie. It's just not as well paced and not as coherent as a whole. The space worm is still one of the dumbest things in any Star Wars film, and really the story of how the characters end up in Cloud City isn't that interesting, even though it takes up half the film.
There's also the problem that Han and Leia romance is really cringeworthy. It wasn't great back in the day (I remember that it made me really uncomfortable as a kid, before I had words to describe the problem) and today it's held up as an example of movies glorifying really harmful ideas of masculinity and romance.
Really? I always found the romance quite positive. Han starts out immature and embodying many if those negative masculine trates. He's later changed by Leia, who is smarter and more mature. I never saw it as Han putting Leia down. If anything it was the opposite.
There's also a lot of time between the first two movies. A lot of people speculate that something happened between Han and Leia during that time.
Finally watched this. Holy crap was this movie bad. The main plot was a slow mo spaceship chase? Did i just watch spaceballs part 2? There is no way i would ever watch another star wars movie in the theatre again.
and I love this stupid Disney stalling crap at the beginning. So I guess in infinity war Dr Strange will start belly dancing to distract Thanos to buy the rest of the heroes time?
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I watched it again tonight with my kids. I found the movie to be better on the second viewing. It could have been lower expectations. It could also be that I didn't watch it as a double-header with Force Awakens like I did the first time. It's still my least favourite the recent movies but it was better than I remembered.
Really? I always found the romance quite positive. Han starts out immature and embodying many if those negative masculine trates. He's later changed by Leia, who is smarter and more mature. I never saw it as Han putting Leia down. If anything it was the opposite.
There's also a lot of time between the first two movies. A lot of people speculate that something happened between Han and Leia during that time.
"Head canon" aka fan fiction is irrelevant, as is their relationship in later movies. Han and Leia romance as portrayed in TESB is just cringe worthy.
The change in Han happens later. In TESB it's basically thus: Leia keeps telling Han she's not into him, even going as far as to say she's into Luke to get him to back off. Han keeps ignoring what she says, completely full of himself and certain that really he's irresistible to her. This keeps happening until Han corners her in a quiet part of his ship. (So "finally" there's nowhere to go and she needs to face him.) She physically pushes him off, he grabs her, she tells him to stop, he doesn't stop, she tells him to stop again, he still doesn't stop, he points out that she's trembling and afraid, (she says she isn't, but it's clear it's true), he tells she likes her because he's a scoundrel, she says actually she likes nice men and starts telling Han he's not a nice man, but he cuts her off physically pushing her against the wall of the ship and kisses her.
At which point she's suddenly all into her and everything is fine. This was all very romantic. If you didn't understand it's romantic, there's romantic background music to tell you how to feel about it. She just didn't want to admit she's into bad boys and Han needed to push her until she gives in.
Everything about that is just effed up.
To be fair to TESB, "force yourself on the girl until she admits she's into you" is very common in older movies especially with men coded as strong masculine and sexy. Like James Bond raping a girl to bring her to the side of the good guys, this was, as they, "a thing".
Finally watched this. Holy crap was this movie bad. The main plot was a slow mo spaceship chase? Did i just watch spaceballs part 2? There is no way i would ever watch another star wars movie in the theatre again.
and I love this stupid Disney stalling crap at the beginning. So I guess in infinity war Dr Strange will start belly dancing to distract Thanos to buy the rest of the heroes time?
This was one of the more cringeworthy parts of a very cringe filled garbage fest.
I watched it again tonight with my kids. I found the movie to be better on the second viewing. It could have been lower expectations. It could also be that I didn't watch it as a double-header with Force Awakens like I did the first time. It's still my least favourite the recent movies but it was better than I remembered.
I did the same and found that watching it at home you could pause it, break it up and even just tune out some of the more boring parts.
Honestly, this movie is the victim of trying to do way too much.
If they want to keep doing this they should release 2 movies a year that are 90 minutes long rather than one that is 150 minutes long that has been pared down to fit.
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At which point she's suddenly all into her and everything is fine. This was all very romantic. If you didn't understand it's romantic, there's romantic background music to tell you how to feel about it. She just didn't want to admit she's into bad boys and Han needed to push her until she gives in.
Everything about that is just effed up.
For whatever reason, this also seems to be a thing with Harrison Ford generally. There's really not a whole lot that's creepier than the Deckard / Rachael romance in Blade Runner... to a point where you're wondering if Ridley Scott did it that way on purpose to make the audience question whether they feel any differently about the notion of sexually assaulting a humanoid android than an actual human (a question now more explicitly and extremely explored in Westworld).
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For whatever reason, this also seems to be a thing with Harrison Ford generally. There's really not a whole lot that's creepier than the Deckard / Rachael romance in Blade Runner... to a point where you're wondering if Ridley Scott did it that way on purpose to make the audience question whether they feel any differently about the notion of sexually assaulting a humanoid android than an actual human (a question now more explicitly and extremely explored in Westworld).
I think that's exactly the purpose of it. It's a machine. It's built to obey his commands. So what would be immoral about it? It has no morals, only what humans tell it is right. Supposedly....
It's the whole theme of Blade Runner really. Those are the types of scenes that make US question it, versus just having someone sit there and go "Is it okay to tell my android to have sex with me?"
I'd agree that the Han and Leia romance is a little outdated in terms of Han's aggressiveness, but I think the earlier banter/glances between them (even Luke's kiss moment, which is an obvious move to mess with Han, even 12 year old me knew that) does a good job of exposing their sexual tension.
I also think Leia's character is set up enough at that point that we know she would probably have actually punched him if she didn't really want to kiss him.
For whatever reason, this also seems to be a thing with Harrison Ford generally. There's really not a whole lot that's creepier than the Deckard / Rachael romance in Blade Runner... to a point where you're wondering if Ridley Scott did it that way on purpose to make the audience question whether they feel any differently about the notion of sexually assaulting a humanoid android than an actual human (a question now more explicitly and extremely explored in Westworld).
From what I've read, Ford and Young had absolutely zero chemistry, so getting any emotion at all into that scene was really the extent of what they were doing. I agree that the result works well from certain POV:s. (Plus it wasn't a first hand account so...)
I would also again highlight that this style of "romance" was super duper common for a long time, especially with rogueish characters which Ford tended play.
So I'm about 3/4 of the way through the novelization of the movie by Jason Fry. When I talk about Revenge of the Sith, I always tell people to read the book, because its amazingly well written and connects with the character and improves the story and especially the seduction of Anakin.
I'm kind of feeling the same way about Fry's book. Jason Fry is pretty well known in the Star Wars universe, he writes for insider, and has written several of the essential guide books.
He's done a unique spin on the ROTS novel which would have sections called "This is what its like to be" where a you would see the world through a main characters eyes. Fry has done that in this novel as you see things from a "certain point of view" throughout the book, from Rey to Luke to Snoke to Kylo Ren.
What's also been done in this novel is that they've added several things into the story line that actually help the story become better and more emotionally impactful.
So Spoilers ahead
About Luke
Spoiler!
In the prologue we see what Luke's life would have been like if he hadn't helped the Droids in a ANH. It shows him on Tatooine as a older successful farmer with his wife Cammy (Who was in the ANH novel, and played in the deleted scenes in ANH by softcore porn star Koo Stark).
He see's a Star Destroyer overhead and muses on the end of the war and the Rebellion and how that brave Princess renounced the destructive rebellion before she was executed.
Basically Luke is so guilt ridden over his actions as a Jedi that he almost wishes that he had never said yes to Ben Kenobi, who by the way was arrested by Storm Troopers.
Rose and her sister
Spoiler!
Ok to me, Rose is still annoying and I don't see the point to her character at all. But they have a scene of her and her sister in the Bomber getting ready for the raid on the First Order Fleet. They share a nice moment and Paige bravely goes off to die
Ackbar's point of view
Spoiler!
Hux is an over aggressive idiot, that's Ackbars opinion of Hux, that if you let him do his thing long enough, he'll Homer Simpson it. He's not the only one, the Captain of Snokes' flagship can't wait for the end of the Rebellion so that he can kill Hux as his usefulness would end.
Leia and Han
Spoiler!
As the Rebels are evacuating their base because they know the First Order is coming Ackbar pretty much demands that they hold a funeral for Han, and Leia while crushed by Han's death thinks that he would hate the idea of a funeral.
The really big star ship
Spoiler!
Snokes flag ship isn't just a ship. Its the First Order. All of the manufacturing and training and military strength and government was on that massive ship. It made everything from Storm Trooper Helmets to Star Destroyers. so in a sense, the assumption is that when Holdo destroyed that ship and the 13 Star Destroyers, that the First Order is pretty much crippled, Though Finn hinted at worse things in the Unknown Space, this is a galaxy pretty much in Chaos.
The Resistance is down to about 13 guys, The Republic is dust with the surviving leaders retreating to their home worlds, and the First Order War Machine is broken.
Snoke
Spoiler!
We learn a lot which leaders me to believe that Fry knew that fans were going to be pissed off at the no answers thing in the movie and the death of Snoke. So he did a chapter from Snokes point of view.
Snoke is pretty arrogant, he feels bar none that he's the most powerful force user ever and the future is his.
When Snoke was young, he learned that the force was always in motion, so he's very unsith like in that he's cautious "Be careful or die" Also as he grew older he learned that the Force Visions are always incomplete.
Snoke's a killer, people underestimate him and he uses that to his advantage. No one expected him to take over the First Order but he ruthlessly eliminated the original leaders of the New Order (Hux's dad, Grand Admiral Rae Sloane etc). He spared Hux not because he respected him or his abilities but because he's basically a tool.
Snokes rise in the first order wasn't about a plan, it was more a matter of shyte happened and he was ruthless enough to take advantage.
Sideous knew of Snoke or at least felt him in the force but wasn't sure what he was. As well when Palpatine died and Operation Cinder was enacted Snoke was able to take advantage of it.
Snoke's on a journey to learn more about the force in the unknown regions, he respects Luke for being on the same quest.
Snoke and Luke connected in their original quests but Luke didn't pick up that Snoke was evil.
Snoke doesn't need Rey, but wishes he'd run into her before because she would have been a worthwhile apprentice.
Snoke was already plotting to get rid of Ren once Rey was dead and the resistance was destroyed, he'd do away with Kylo because he was too unstable.
Snoke believed that Ren could be very powerful but he's too conflicted with the light side.
Luke's a bastard
Spoiler!
When Rey showed up on the Island, Luke was basically on his way to destroy the Jedi Library, not because Rey was coming but because he wanted to deny the chance of the Jedi rising after his death.
Luke pretty much lied to her face about Ben Solo, but when she fought him, she felt hungry to beat Luke, and he gave her every reason to want to beat him down.
There was a scene in the book where he played a really horrible joke on Rey.
They were meditating and Rey saw a boat heading towards the Island. Luke told her that they were raiders from another Island who would show up once a month to steal from the caretakers.
Rey wanted to help the people, but Luke refused because if they intervened that the Raiders would keep coming back in greater force and cause greater harm. Basically he was telling her that the Jedi shouldn't interfere in anything.
Rey basically can't handle that and runs off to save the care takers and stumbles into a party, the Raiders were relatives. At that point, Rey basically decided that she was done with Luke.
I'll finish this when I finish the book.
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Nope, they basically borrowed the line from Empire Strikes back when they thought the Falcon had jumped to Hyperspace and they calculated all known possibilities based on their last known trajectory.
Basically the First Order had a super bad arse computer that was surrounded by a hyperspace field that could do monstrous amounts of calculations based on every possible hyper space course and possible used destinations. Basically they would look at the direction the fleet was jumping and the computer would calculate the most likely destinations.
Hux hates everyone
Spoiler!
Every member of the New Order thought he was pretty much insane. He was also planning on a way to get rid of Snoke and ren because the title Supreme Leader Hux sounded good to him, meanwhile Snoke was going to kill Hux when his usefulness ended as well as Ren unless he really went to the darkside.
Is there any chance of Snoke coming back?
Spoiler!
Nope, he's not only dead as the last conscious thought in his mind was ouch. But his body was incinerated in the ships explosion.
There is literally no need for him to come back, The chapter after he died was all about Kylo Ren's ascension to the dark side, and his eagerness to destroy everything from the past and everything that hurt him.
The Jedi, The Sith, The Republic, The First Order, Snoke, Leia. They all had to go in Ren's mind so he could impose a new order on the galaxy. He basically also told Rey that she was nothing to him, but she was like him in that she had been abandoned and bullied and used by everyone around her, and that he was pretty much the only one that cared about her.
Rey hesitated before saying no, and in the book you kept reading about Rey's rage, and anger and her enjoyment at fighting.
Oh and Snoke, extremely powerful, he basically ripped through Rey's mind like a hot knife through brain tissue. He also saw her as a threat because if she accepted the Darkness she's be more powerful then Ren.
Phasma was just there to die
Spoiler!
There was very little attention given to Phasma, unlike all of the other characters we never saw anything from her perspective. Instead she was just there to make clever quips, call Finn a dirt bag and pretty much die. Even the moment in the movie where her helmet broke and we saw her eye before she fell. That's just a whatever moment in the book and she falls and that's it.
And now we're forked
Spoiler!
Finn and Hux come to the same conclusion, without the Supremacy the First Order has suffered a serious setback, the roving capital city of the First Order and all of its abilities to make weapons of war are gone. The force that lands on the planet is pretty much all there is, of course the Resistance is down to about 20 guys in the end and one ship (The Falcon).
I'm figuring that this next movie will have very little to do with the First Order or the Resistance and more to do with Ren chasing Rey around the galaxy, while she teaches herself to be a jedi.
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Nope, they basically borrowed the line from Empire Strikes back when they thought the Falcon had jumped to Hyperspace and they calculated all known possibilities based on their last known trajectory.
Basically the First Order had a super bad arse computer that was surrounded by a hyperspace field that could do monstrous amounts of calculations based on every possible hyper space course and possible used destinations. Basically they would look at the direction the fleet was jumping and the computer would calculate the most likely destinations.
Hux hates everyone
Spoiler!
Every member of the New Order thought he was pretty much insane. He was also planning on a way to get rid of Snoke and ren because the title Supreme Leader Hux sounded good to him, meanwhile Snoke was going to kill Hux when his usefulness ended as well as Ren unless he really went to the darkside.
Is there any chance of Snoke coming back?
Spoiler!
Nope, he's not only dead as the last conscious thought in his mind was ouch. But his body was incinerated in the ships explosion.
There is literally no need for him to come back, The chapter after he died was all about Kylo Ren's ascension to the dark side, and his eagerness to destroy everything from the past and everything that hurt him.
The Jedi, The Sith, The Republic, The First Order, Snoke, Leia. They all had to go in Ren's mind so he could impose a new order on the galaxy. He basically also told Rey that she was nothing to him, but she was like him in that she had been abandoned and bullied and used by everyone around her, and that he was pretty much the only one that cared about her.
Rey hesitated before saying no, and in the book you kept reading about Rey's rage, and anger and her enjoyment at fighting.
Oh and Snoke, extremely powerful, he basically ripped through Rey's mind like a hot knife through brain tissue. He also saw her as a threat because if she accepted the Darkness she's be more powerful then Ren.
Phasma was just there to die
Spoiler!
There was very little attention given to Phasma, unlike all of the other characters we never saw anything from her perspective. Instead she was just there to make clever quips, call Finn a dirt bag and pretty much die. Even the moment in the movie where her helmet broke and we saw her eye before she fell. That's just a whatever moment in the book and she falls and that's it.
And now we're forked
Spoiler!
Finn and Hux come to the same conclusion, without the Supremacy the First Order has suffered a serious setback, the roving capital city of the First Order and all of its abilities to make weapons of war are gone. The force that lands on the planet is pretty much all there is, of course the Resistance is down to about 20 guys in the end and one ship (The Falcon).
I'm figuring that this next movie will have very little to do with the First Order or the Resistance and more to do with Ren chasing Rey around the galaxy, while she teaches herself to be a jedi.
Spoiler!
Was the First Order actually supposed to be a government in control of trillions of people? I'm not sure how they maintained that order with such limited ships or how they plan to maintain order with even fewer ships now.
The Empire gained power via taking control of the democratic republic. Presumably were able to use infrastructure already in place on various planets.
If the FO has no support from any planets, and the only forces they have are the ones that are currently surviving, are they just a rogue group of terrorists at this point? Surely some wealthy planet has the resources to deal with them?
Is this whole thing just a handful of people just sorting out their personal beef at this point?
"Head canon" aka fan fiction is irrelevant, as is their relationship in later movies. Han and Leia romance as portrayed in TESB is just cringe worthy.
The change in Han happens later. In TESB it's basically thus: Leia keeps telling Han she's not into him, even going as far as to say she's into Luke to get him to back off. Han keeps ignoring what she says, completely full of himself and certain that really he's irresistible to her. This keeps happening until Han corners her in a quiet part of his ship. (So "finally" there's nowhere to go and she needs to face him.) She physically pushes him off, he grabs her, she tells him to stop, he doesn't stop, she tells him to stop again, he still doesn't stop, he points out that she's trembling and afraid, (she says she isn't, but it's clear it's true), he tells she likes her because he's a scoundrel, she says actually she likes nice men and starts telling Han he's not a nice man, but he cuts her off physically pushing her against the wall of the ship and kisses her.
At which point she's suddenly all into her and everything is fine. This was all very romantic. If you didn't understand it's romantic, there's romantic background music to tell you how to feel about it. She just didn't want to admit she's into bad boys and Han needed to push her until she gives in.
Everything about that is just effed up.
To be fair to TESB, "force yourself on the girl until she admits she's into you" is very common in older movies especially with men coded as strong masculine and sexy. Like James Bond raping a girl to bring her to the side of the good guys, this was, as they, "a thing".
I wasn't referring to fan fiction. There is a 3 year gap between ANH and ESB. During that time Han and Leia have been holed up together in small rebel bases for much of that time. We aren't told what has happened to them, but obviously they've had some kind of interaction.
You can obviously interpret the interaction in the ESB a number of ways. However, it's pretty clear that the main intention of the writers was to show that both parties were engaging each other with insults in a way that wouldn't make sense unless there was some kind of emotion between the two. I also disagree with your assumption that Leia just gave in. It was fairly obvious that she had feelings all along. You're saying that despite being one of the most powerful people in the galaxy, she was actually being abused by Han and only gave in when she was too worn down? And then she continued a relationship with him for many years after?
Here's a pretty good write up on why it makes sense that Han and Leia were going at it before ESB begins:
I'll try to answer your questions, based on what we know
Spoiler!
Was the First Order actually supposed to be a government in control of trillions of people? I'm not sure how they maintained that order with such limited ships or how they plan to maintain order with even fewer ships now.
Basically it sounds like the First Order is a conquering Force. They talked about Rose's backstory for example. The First Order showed up at her planet and strip mined it of all resources, and then basically when they were done they took the people that they wanted, and shelled the planet.
So my guess, is that the planets that the First Order Controls, are basically resource hubs with a weakened population, and they leave enough of a detachment there to keep control.
The Empire gained power via taking control of the democratic republic. Presumably were able to use infrastructure already in place on various planets.
Palpatine planned for every eventuality, that's what operation Cinder was. Basically if he was killed off then the Empire was too weak for his greatness and a more pure Empire would have to rise. So basically while he was ruling he established store houses and weapons depots out in Wild Space, he also sent a Super Star Destroyer out there with the best and brightest of his Empire.
If the First Galactic Empire fell, then Operation Cinder was put into effect, which meant that the remnant of the Empire went around destroying everything in the Empire, first of all to weaken a New Republic, second of all to kill off those too weak or flawed to serve the Empire. Those that were strong enough received the coordinates to Wild Space, where the Empire would rebuild as basically pure strength, the brightest and Strongest of the Empire.
The name First Order came from Rae Sloane who issued the first order which was to make a better Empire.
If the FO has no support from any planets, and the only forces they have are the ones that are currently surviving, are they just a rogue group of terrorists at this point? Surely some wealthy planet has the resources to deal with them?
The entire government of the First Order was on that ship, it was the capital, the logic being that they could never be defeated by one strike on one planet or base, the Supremecy just floated out there, the big mistake was on Snoke for actually bringing it into play.
Think of it as a floating island supported by planets too enslaved and too weak and too disciplined to form a rebellion.
The first order strategy was actually pretty smart, because they spent a lot of time advancing and designing advanced weapons, they might be smaller and more concentrated then the Empire was, but they were extremely well prepared and competent.
Plus by not growing into an actual Empire and staying small, the New Republic ignored them as not a threat and went about the business of coming to a peaceful resolution with the Old Empire, right to the point of inviting them into the government, where the Imperial Representatives tied things up in knots, and helped the New Republic to basically disarm, and beat the swords into plow shares.
Then when the First Order decided it was time, those old Imperial Worlds defected and gave the New Order, not only a big foothold in the inner rim, but also resource rich, wealth loyal worlds. They basically shifted the balance over night, but the New Republic still didn't see them as a threat, because they didn't see that the true power of the First Order wasn't in numbers, but in the pure concentrated ability of a relatively small force.
With the Republic in denial, and with the Resistance being tiny and not well funded, and with no ship yard or training facilities to target because they were all on one overwhelming mobile platform, weakening the New Order would have been extremely tough.
Is this whole thing just a handful of people just sorting out their personal beef at this point?
The funny thing is that its not a beef per say, the First Order was never about avenging Palpatine's death, that was the lie that sold Operation Cinder. They were never about taking back the Empire.
The officers that started the first order believed though the message that Palpatine put out there. That freedom and democracy are really agents of chaos and the galaxy is too big to allow that kind of chaos. That a galaxy wide government, needed to be all on the same page and that no strife could ever be allowed or you'd see civil war without end.
They were all about what they believed which was harmony through discipline and the imposition of order.
JJ Abrahms basically stated the idea of the new order came from a late night discussions about the Nazi's fleeing to Brazil. What would happen if they had gotten there after Hitler's death and spent that time refining, and rearming and even redefining Nazism without the hatred based philsophy of Adolf Hitler.
So then you spin it.
What if the Empire went into hiding and spent 40 years developing its military effectiveness, and training and weapons, and didn't waste time on the things that caused the cracks in the Empire which was Palpatine itself.
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Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
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It is the task of the First Order to remove the disorder from our own existence, so that civilization may be returned to the stability that promotes progress. A stability that existed under the Empire, was reduced to anarchy by the Rebellion, was inherited in turn by the so-called Republic, and will be restored by us. Future historians will look upon this as the time when a strong hand brought the rule of law back to civilization."
Kylo Ren
"It's time to start over. That is our first order. To begin again. And to get it right, this time." ―Rae Sloane to Brendol Hux[src]
"The First Order is not the Empire. We are purer. We have been through the crucible and emerged stronger." ―Phasma[src]
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