Documentation of Rape Culture in Hockey

[Bingo]

I would love to see the stats ...

hockey vs football vs basketball vs baseball

is it sports in general? sports that have large salaries?

or is it proportionate to society in general?

If hockey has a specific problem more than a) all other sports and / or b) general society then they need to look at it.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I would love to see the stats ...

hockey vs football vs basketball vs baseball

is it sports in general? sports that have large salaries?

or is it proportionate to society in general?

If hockey has a specific problem more than a) all other sports and / or b) general society then they need to look at it.

I expect that sports is worse that the general population in that you are dealing with a higher percentage of people who are wealthier and grew up with an elite attitude.

Now, if you compared sports people with a cross section of the general population who grew up wealthier and with a similar elitist attitude, you might find little difference. It's likely not the sports themselves, it's the type of people involved, being those who grew up believing you can buy your way out of trouble.

JMO.

[JohnnyB]

Wouldn't shock me to see stats indicating that people who are celebrated and admired for being gladiators more frequently behave in ways that bring domination and abuse into broader society.

Cultures that foster admiration of dominant 'alpha' personality types seem likely to have a higher incidence of this kind of thing imo. Add in violence and physical domination as part of what's celebrated and the odds of attracting/fostering the type of dispositions that will do that sort of thing outside the sport is going to be higher. Topping it off with a kind of tribal 'bro' culture that encourages people to cover for each other and protect the inner circle and it's an even more dangerous mix.

Doesn't seem likely to just be a hockey thing, but a thing that is probably enabled by aspects of hockey culture nonetheless.

[CroFlames]

Some of the stuff on that list is disgusting and abhorrent.

But some of it seems a little hokey too, like the Lucic one. Argument with girlfriend, someone "heard" a slap but no one saw it, both parties deny it, but now you are on a list with rapists and physical abusers.

[P-DAZZLE]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

This is literally why God invented the legal system. Unfortunately though, it also appears to be why God invented newspapers and the internet.

Originally Posted by FanIn80

I'm no legal expert, by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm having a hard time viewing a diary entry as non-circumstantial. Sure I'm being facetious, but if I wrote in my diary that I lent Bill Gates $7M - and then I later even "admited" I lent it to him - would he send me a cheque for the full amount?

Why did God invent both diary entries and facetious diary entries? Silly God.

You think the people around (girl was given access to St. Louis Blues facilities with Gilmour so she didn't just see him on TV and think he was dreamy) didn't know the difference or seek to find out the difference between an imaginary diary entry and what actually happened?! And you think comparing it to you a joke about Bill Gates in your adult diary is a good comparison?

[Moneyhands23]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I would love to see the stats ...

hockey vs football vs basketball vs baseball

is it sports in general? sports that have large salaries?

or is it proportionate to society in general?

If hockey has a specific problem more than a) all other sports and / or b) general society then they need to look at it.

I'd like to add in for comparison

Hollywood elites, Lawyers, CEO's of international companies and politicians...

[P-DAZZLE]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I would love to see the stats ...

hockey vs football vs basketball vs baseball

is it sports in general? sports that have large salaries?

or is it proportionate to society in general?

If hockey has a specific problem more than a) all other sports and / or b) general society then they need to look at it.

Personally, I think it is quite obviously a pro sports issue, not just hockey. But hockey quite clearly has some systemic issues that have allowed and are allowing this kind of behaviour. Then there is also the fact that hockey is generally sold in this country as having great values and being a family thing (and Hockey Canada and the World Jrs. are great examples of this). I think it's an issue to be looked at in society in general, but hockey has a huge influence on a lot of Canadians so there's a responsibility and an ability to help positive change by confronting such a negative thing.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by P-DAZZLE

Personally, I think it is quite obviously a pro sports issue, not just hockey. But hockey quite clearly has some systemic issues that have allowed and are allowing this kind of behaviour. Then there is also the fact that hockey is generally sold in this country as having great values and being a family thing (and Hockey Canada and the World Jrs. are great examples of this). I think it's an issue to be looked at in society in general, but hockey has a huge influence on a lot of Canadians so there's a responsibility and an ability to help positive change by confronting such a negative thing.

The pro sports issue is largely covering it up/brushing it aside because someone is good at a game. All of that is disgusting.

But, I’d be surprised to learn that hockey players, or any specific sport, commit more sexual assault than any other sub group. It’s a serious problem in society… and I find the “hockey culture” angle detracts from that fact.

[P-DAZZLE]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

The pro sports issue is largely covering it up/brushing it aside because someone is good at a game. All of that is disgusting.

But, I’d be surprised to learn that hockey players, or any specific sport, commit more sexual assault than any other sub group. It’s a serious problem in society… and I find the “hockey culture” angle detracts from that fact.

You could be right. I lean towards the fact that covering it up, plus the fact that there is an environment for it to flourish or become "culture" means that it is in fact a bigger issue. As a previous poster mentioned, there's also the fact that aggression and domination are largely considered positive attributes within a competitive sports culture. Having seen "hockey culture" and "football culture" in a university setting compared to other sports in the same place, I don't dismiss it as just an angle. That being said, frat culture existed too and was generally worse without any competitive sport being involved.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by P-DAZZLE

You could be right. I lean towards the fact that covering it up, plus the fact that there is an environment for it to flourish or become "culture" means that it is in fact a bigger issue.

Yeah I absolutely agree, I guess that’s kind of my point with the sports specific issues.

It’s one thing to try and stop people from ever committing sexual assault. But it’s an entirely different conversation when outside people cover that up. Especially when it’s just to make a buck. Or even stupider, to keep playing a game… I can’t even process someone having that mindset.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by blender

There can be a debate about the usefulness of this list being posted here, or of the merits of the list itself, but anyone who doesn't understand and acknowledge that there is a serious, deep-seated problem in hockey culture is either clueless or willfully ignorant.

Here is the thing that I found significant about the list.

There are many entries where the abuse happens while in groups.

That speaks volumes to me.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by P-DAZZLE

Why did God invent both diary entries and facetious diary entries? Silly God.

You think the people around (girl was given access to St. Louis Blues facilities with Gilmour so she didn't just see him on TV and think he was dreamy) didn't know the difference or seek to find out the difference between an imaginary diary entry and what actually happened?! And you think comparing it to you a joke about Bill Gates in your adult diary is a good comparison?

For the record, "God invented..." is just a subtle jab at the people who think angels are real, since they're often the ones who are willing to dust off a pitchfork without the necessity of evidence.

From what I understand, as someone who was alive and reading newspapers when this story first came out, this girl was actually their babysitter. (Note that I actually don't know for sure if she was or wasn't, so I'm essentially doing the same thing here that I'm advocating against - which is hearsay.)

It's not inconceivable for an athlete before the 90's to invite a fan on a tour of the dressing rooms, or to watch a practice or even set up some icetime for their friends to skate around. Nowadays, it's impossible to do that without some kind of chaperone - but it was a different world back then, when people didn't think twice about this stuff.

Again, back to my original point, none of this is actual evidence of a crime being committed. It's circumstantial at best, and not only was it not enough for any criminal charges - it wasn't even enough to sustain a civil proceeding. Note my use of the word "sustain" there, because it's not like the civil suit was held and found in favour of Gilmour... the suit was thrown out of court because there wasn't even enough evidence to hear it.

It's scary to think of how we live in a world where an accusation gets a front page story, while a retraction only gets two sentences on page 8.

(Also for the record, in no way am I claiming anyone did or didn't do something. At no point have I said that Gilmour is innocent or guilty. I'm just saying that I'd like to live in a world with more focus on what actually happened vs what people assumed happened.)

[GordonBlue]

I wonder is part of the problem is how young kids are when they leave home to go play, vs players in other sports.

I don't think baseball players or football players leave home at 14 or whatever it is to go play at a higher level.

[Azure]

If you give young kids status, power, ego and money all at the same time, #### happens.

The cover up on many of these is digusting.

But some of these are perhaps borderline defamation and I don't think it is right to keep spreading it. We have a legal system and there are some great investigative reporters digging into this.

[P-DAZZLE]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

(Also for the record, in no way am I claiming anyone did or didn't do something. At no point have I said that Gilmour is innocent or guilty. I'm just saying that I'd like to live in a world with more focus on what actually happened vs what people assumed happened.)

I think that's a part of why "the culture" is an issue though. A lot of things can happen with the legal system that don't necessarily reflect just what happened. There's a system that can be exploited or can heavily favour people with money or organizational power behind them. That seems pretty cut and dry in the Gilmour case based on what was given as advice to the victim's family.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by P-DAZZLE

I think that's a part of why "the culture" is an issue though. A lot of things can happen with the legal system that don't necessarily reflect just what happened. There's a system that can be exploited or can heavily favour people with money or organizational power behind them. That seems pretty cut and dry in the Gilmour case based on what was given as advice to the victim's family.

As a lawyer, I say "yup". And moreso in the 80s I would guess. This kind of stuff was hushed up.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

I wonder is part of the problem is how young kids are when they leave home to go play, vs players in other sports.

I don't think baseball players or football players leave home at 14 or whatever it is to go play at a higher level.

I guess I just assumed this was the norm for elite athletes, just that hockey is our thing here. Do baseball and football players not do this in the states?

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

I guess I just assumed this was the norm for elite athletes, just that hockey is our thing here. Do baseball and football players not do this in the states?

I'd be shocked if its any different. Any group who is used to have women throw themselves at them is more likely to stop looking at woman as people and just do whatever they want with them. Particular if they are young men/teenagers who make terrible decisions when 'excited' in the best of times.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I would love to see the stats ...

hockey vs football vs basketball vs baseball

is it sports in general? sports that have large salaries?

or is it proportionate to society in general?

If hockey has a specific problem more than a) all other sports and / or b) general society then they need to look at it.

My intuition is this sort of toxic sexual entitlement is associated with sports that are:

* Team sports

* Violent

* High-status

I’d be very surprised if 19 year old badminton players and cross-country runners are involved in as many instances of sexual predation and coercion as their counterparts in hockey and football.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

I guess I just assumed this was the norm for elite athletes, just that hockey is our thing here. Do baseball and football players not do this in the states?

In the US, high schools and colleges/universities represent the feeder network for the big leagues. In Canada, we don't place that level of emphasis on high or secondary school sports. There, it's a HUGE thing with a lot of pride and a massive viewership... here, it's just something that gets in the way of important things like religious studies and being home on time for supper.