American Politics Thread: The Hunt for Blue November

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Anyone with a brain knows exactly what he means..."prosecuted for violence and destruction"

all that matters is the election...that statement doesn't hurt Biden at all IMO. Maybe lose 100 votes in Cali and gain in places that matter.

"good people in the KKK"
"prosecute anarchists for violence and destruction"

You tell me

Ah good, so we're entirely into "the ends justify the means" territory. Good thing there's no historical precedent for that going horribly awry.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by New Era

For accuracy, anarchism is a philosophy not an ideology. Anarchism is a belief that all ideology is bad and that all forms of government are incongruent to individual freedom. Anarchism promotes the dissolution of all forms of collective governance.

What we have seen with these and other protests is that Antifa, the anarchists in question, have been focused on doing nothing more than engaging in property damage, inciting violence, and yes, starting fires (arson). These are not people who care about the issues being protested, they are there only to stir up the ####. So yes, they should be arrested "for their actions." If they want to participate in a peaceful protest, they should be left alone. But pull out one spray can, break one window, or set one fire, and in cuffs you go.

Then he should have said Antifa, but he can't.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Ah good, so we're entirely into "the ends justify the means" territory. Good thing there's no historical precedent for that going horribly awry.

You are worried about the living room carpet being outdated while the f--king house is on fire. Priorities, man.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Ah good, so we're entirely into "the ends justify the means" territory. Good thing there's no historical precedent for that going horribly awry.

The ends DO justify the means at this point, or you end up with Trump.

Which do you think is better? Speaking of historical precedent, how has letting perfect be the enemy of the good worked out? Society has been warned against that for what... 300 years? and we still sit around letting perfect and good (or hell, just "better") fight it out again and again while "bad" sneaks up through the middle and trumps both.

I get you entirely. I really can't stand Biden. The Lincoln Project is run by a bunch of people I would roundly consider as "bad." But sometimes the ends really do justify the means. When has letting perfect be the enemy of the good ever worked in humanity's favour?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

You are worried about the living room carpet being outdated while the f--king house is on fire. Priorities, man.

I can't believe I have to keep repeating this, but politicians should be held accountable for the things they say regardless of if they play for your team or not.

This thread has gone full MSNBC with the way posters will jump down the throats of anyone who has something remotely negative to say about Biden.

[Bill Bumface]

I'm with Rube. I'd absolutely vote Biden given the chance, but that doesn't mean the Democratic party should be off the hook.

Besides universal health care, action on the fronts of racism and inequality has been incredibly shallow. Slapping social program band-aids on problems that sound great but fix nothing. Any "outsider" with grand ideas to truly address the systemic issues in a way that threatens the traditional power structures is quickly pushed aside (*cough* Andrew Yang).

Corporate America pulls the strings in the US, and neither party is willing to get off the teat.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

The ends DO justify the means at this point, or you end up with Trump.

Which do you think is better? Speaking of historical precedent, how has letting perfect be the enemy of the good worked out? Society has been warned against that for what... 300 years? and we still sit around letting perfect and good (or hell, just "better") fight it out again and again while "bad" sneaks up through the middle and trumps both.

I get you entirely. I really can't stand Biden. The Lincoln Project is run by a bunch of people I would roundly consider as "bad." But sometimes the ends really do justify the means. When has letting perfect be the enemy of the good ever worked in humanity's favour?

Letting the ends justify the means is how we ended up with Trump.

It's not as if I'm saying "Biden did this, therefore vote for Trump." My point is "Biden did this, it's concerning, and he should be held accountable for it if/when he wins...but also he's the best option at this point."

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

I'm with Rube. I'd absolutely vote Biden given the chance, but that doesn't mean the Democratic party should be off the hook.

Besides universal health care, action on the fronts of racism and inequality has been incredibly shallow. Slapping social program band-aids on problems that sound great but fix nothing.

Corporate America pulls the strings in the US, and neither party is willing to get off the teat.

Hey, don't forget those times Pelosi clapped sarcastically for Trump and tore up his State of the Union address. Truly historic and meaningful moments in American politics.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

I'm with Rube. I'd absolutely vote Biden given the chance, but that doesn't mean the Democratic party should be off the hook.

Besides universal health care, action on the fronts of racism and inequality has been incredibly shallow. Slapping social program band-aids on problems that sound great but fix nothing. Any "outsider" with grand ideas to truly address the systemic issues in a way that threatens the traditional power structures is quickly pushed aside (*cough* Andrew Yang).

Corporate America pulls the strings in the US, and neither party is willing to get off the teat.

The DNC fought harder against Yang and Bernie then they are against Trump.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I can't believe I have to keep repeating this, but politicians should be held accountable for the things they say regardless of if they play for your team or not.

This thread has gone full MSNBC with the way posters will jump down the throats of anyone who has something remotely negative to say about Biden.

You're being incredibly thick. Nowhere did I imply he should not be held accountable. I am saying -- given the current situation -- that should be the least of anyone's worries at the present time because fixing it will mean bugger all if the orange menace remains in office.

I am the first to suggest that you can indeed tackle more than one issue at a time. I am also aware that things have priorities and prerequisites, which was the point of my house-on-fire metaphor that you clearly missed. The thing you are complaining about does not matter one iota if Biden loses the election and Trump stays in; the house has burnt down. Putting your energy into that thing right now is a waste when winning the election is also a prerequisite for it bloody mattering at all. Win the election. Put out the fire.


This is what people mean when they say things like 'the left is eating itself'. You have a shot at ousting the worst President in US history and have a solid chance at repairing the country, and now is the time we need to start pissing and moaning about how one might interpret what he said? dino7c is likely correct in his assessment of the intent of Biden's statement. Just ask yourself if you think Biden is supportive of having unmarked officers randomly kidnap citizens. I think we all know the answer.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

The DNC fought harder against Yang and Bernie then they are against Trump.

Trump is currently tanking himself and they don't have to lift a finger. Sometimes the best strategy is to STFU and sit on your hands. I'm actually impressed they're not out there flapping around screwing this up. Save it for when/if support for Trump is on the upswing.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

Keep in mind this is a country that has enough guns to arm every man, woman, and child, then arm every man, woman, and child in Canada almost two times over.

At some point, the government either reins in the police and stops them from doing this to innocent civilians, or people will eventually start to fight back.

Keep in mind that most of those guns are in the hands of people who seem to want this to be happening. In fact, I would put money on these unmarked "officers" being largely made up of those nutjobs. They don't want freedom, they want personal power and authority over others. It's all kinds of backwards, but that's where we are at. Tyranny is universal healthcare, and freedom is protesters being ripped from the street and thrown into unmarked vans.

I agree, logical conclusion is violence only escalates until major things start to happen. They are actually creating a REAL Antifa (there are definitely GOP members who know this and are hoping for it, so they can use it against the Dems). A real militant sect of protesters, because that's all they feel they can do. When peaceful protest is met with what we're seeing, what other options are there? We can hope nothing too crazy (we've already passed that point in my personal opinion) happens before the election and things can settle out, but I have zero faith in anything changing for the better under Biden. I mean, it'll be better because he's a human person of relatively high intelligence and he won't be purposely stoking violence, but as far as the stuff people are wanting/needing here (police reform, universal healthcare, tax reform), little chance he ends up changing any of that stuff. AND the people enabling Trump are still there with their idiot ideas.

I had a haunting conversation with a buddy of mine from Russia during the 2016 election. Putin wins obviously and so I ask him "man, so everyone knows this is BS right?" "Yeah, a small portion of people are big for Putin, but most know it's a joke." "So why isn't there a bigger stink about it?" "Because not enough people's lives bad enough to actually put their life on the line to make a difference. Most people have their comforts (shelter, warmth, security, entertainment, etc..) and, while they agree the corruption is bad, are they going to put themselves in front of a bullet to make change? No."

And that's when I realized the evil genius of what Putin is doing, and I'm sure what he's told Donny to do as well. And it's playing out here. Who in that crowd actually feels like their life is worth getting between that person and "police"? If it wasn't for the pandemic and a bunch of people who would otherwise be working, would these protests be what they are? Probably not. And even with millions of people marching in the streets for months at a time, is anything actually changing? Will it? Maybe eventually. It's much more likely that militant protesters begin to actually rise up, fight back, and get squashed by the government power as they always have been. Because even people who agree with their message, won't agree with use of force. But the opposite is not true. People who agree with what the government is doing here WANT use of force and will sign up so they can personally use it against "leftist insurgents" or whatever.

It's a sad state of despair really. I have hope that things can end up getting resolved peacefully, but history doesn't exactly have our backs on that one. History has given us government sponsored suppression and murder of anyone who challenges status quo, basically the world over. So who's willing to submit themselves to that possibility? Enough to make change? Millions are marching in the street and there's STILL not going to be any fundamental change on this until people like both Trump AND Biden are gone. It's nice to think these people will just die away, but people like Matt Gaetz and Stephen Miller still exist are relatively young.

...maybe I don't actually have hope.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Then he should have said Antifa, but he can't.

He said what he said because it was accurate. "Antifa" is a bunch of bull#### dreamed up by the right wing media to slap an identify on the hooligans that come out to vandalize property and scare the crap out of people. What is the use of feeding this stupidity by repeating the narrative. These people are anarchist punks who have no desire to do anything but cause mayhem. They think it is cool. Don't validate them by giving them a collective label to hide behind.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Trump is currently tanking himself and they don't have to lift a finger. Sometimes the best strategy is to STFU and sit on your hands. I'm actually impressed they're not out there flapping around screwing this up. Save it for when/if support for Trump is on the upswing.

"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." -Sun Tzu

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Letting the ends justify the means is how we ended up with Trump.

It's not as if I'm saying "Biden did this, therefore vote for Trump." My point is "Biden did this, it's concerning, and he should be held accountable for it if/when he wins...but also he's the best option at this point."

And so is letting perfect be the enemy of good. It's how we ended up with Trump and, locally, Kenney. You know what else would have happened if more people on the left or center, politically, let the ends justify the means? Hillary would have won, and we would have avoided Trump altogether. But people wanted perfect, so they turned their back on "better."

Personally, I think it's just ideological and selfish, and not the way you move society forward. Society moves forward in baby steps, and sometimes it means we almost must move backward a step to avoid tripping on our own feet and falling down altogether. That's what happened. Too many people couldn't get their head out of their ass about Hillary. Too many people on the left wanted her to be held accountable, which is fine in theory or in a vacuum, but that momentum grew, and it cost her the election for no good reason. The right wasn't playing the same game, they didn't give a #### about Trump. You have to play the same game if you want better outcomes.

Maybe I'm disillusioned. I want real progressives. I, quite frankly not giving a #### what the conservative or "classical liberal" crowd thinks, want modern socialism. I'm envious of the countries where that system works. But as someone who's identity and rights are often the source of political debate and policies, I'm also very used to losing or having a loud group of people fight against every win, like my just being seen as the same as everyone else is an affront to their existance as human beings.

I think having actual skin in the game and being a minority, whether based on your race, gender, sexuality, whatever, you start to get used to losing and appreciating what progress actual looks like. So, yeah, I think there's a lot to criticise Biden and the Democrats for etc etc. But I also know that now isn't the time, because Republicans aren't going to play that game, and with every meaningless thing you hold Biden accountable for today, you risk giving away the fragile momentum that he has, and you risk losing out on better.

There's ~90 days left. It's time to swallow pride and play the game, and get to better. There will be four years of accountability after that. Biting your tongue for 90 days isn't going to change that.

My two cents anyway. Apologies for the personal rant.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Anyways back to Trump being a complete ####wad...

https://twitter.com/user/status/1288509568578777088

https://twitter.com/user/status/1288509572223651840

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by rubecube

This thread has gone full MSNBC with the way posters will jump down the throats of anyone who has something remotely negative to say about Biden.

Anyone? No, just you and your obsession with showing Biden isn’t perfect when nobody has said that he is.

[jammies]

"Don't let perfect be the enemy of the good" and "ends justify the means" are not equivalent, nor does the first imply the second. The ends never justify the means. Full stop.

Unity of thought and behaviour has a huge inherent advantage over disunity, and thus authoritarian ideologies often triumph even when only a minority cleave to such. That doesn't mean those who value diversity of thought and behaviour should embrace groupthink and obedience to combat this advantage, though. Temporary measures have a tendency to become permanent, there's always another crisis where dissent and criticism seem inconvenient and counter-productive. It is - but it is also vital.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

I am the first to suggest that you can indeed tackle more than one issue at a time. I am also aware that things have priorities and prerequisites, which was the point of my house-on-fire metaphor that you clearly missed. The thing you are complaining about does not matter one iota if Biden loses the election and Trump stays in; the house has burnt down. Putting your energy into that thing right now is a waste when winning the election is also a prerequisite for it bloody mattering at all. Win the election. Put out the fire.

And I think you're naive if you think putting Biden in puts out the fire. The fire is raging because people such as Biden have been at the controls for 40+ years. Trump is definitely akin to substituting the water in the fire hose with gasoline, but the fire was already raging before he got into power.

dino7c is likely correct in his assessment of the intent of Biden's statement. Just ask yourself if you think Biden is supportive of having unmarked officers randomly kidnap citizens. I think we all know the answer.

Words matter and rhetoric often has consequences. This is playing the same "that's not what he meant" card that MAGAs toss out every time Trump says something colossally stupid.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

There's ~90 days left. It's time to swallow pride and play the game, and get to better. There will be four years of accountability after that. Biting your tongue for 90 days isn't going to change that.

I'm fully in agreement with holding your nose and choosing the best of two bad options. I don't agree with holding your tongue.

This is the same line Democrats have been tossing out every election. "This election is too important to focus on our own issues. Just vote for us and we'll sort it out in the next four years." The first half of that statement is true, but there's zero reason to have any faith in the second half of it. The Democrats have constantly used the fear of moving backwards to justify never moving forward.

There's also zero reason to think Joe Biden, a largely career centre-right politician, is going to make meaningful reform on most of the major issues plaguing American society and politics.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Question: Would you like a slice of pepperoni and pineapple pizza, or would you rather eat this steaming pile of human feces?

Biden Hater: That's disgusting. Why would anyone ever put pineapple on pizza? That's just wrong and unnatural. No one should ever want pineapple on pizza.


So is pineapple on pizza great? No. But let's not lose sight of the fact that the alternative is actual human sh*t.