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Old 06-27-2018, 04:28 PM   #1881
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For what it's worth my one and only random encounter with Dougie was extremely positive. He basically went out of his way to quickly chat when I was a few beers deep and called to him as he was leaving the establishment.
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Old 06-27-2018, 04:34 PM   #1882
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For what it's worth my one and only random encounter with Dougie was extremely positive. He basically went out of his way to quickly chat when I was a few beers deep and called to him as he was leaving the establishment.
What Museum were you at that served a beer! Sounds like a good time
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Old 06-27-2018, 05:25 PM   #1883
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Dellow really didn't do that if you read the article. He's simply saying that given precedence, it is extremely unlikely he ever becomes as good as Hamilton right now. He notes that Hanifin was given a little more freedom last season but was still sheltered after being extremely sheltered the two seasons prior.

That doesn't mean he can't turn into a star (he is not a star, regardless of what the all-star fan vote says), but that seems like a massive risk from the Flames perspective, especially considering what was given up.
Hanifin is pretty much exactly where Hamilton was after 3 seasons.

Since then, Hamilton has blossomed offensively, but has really stagnated defensively.

Considering Hanifin's progression over the last 3 seasons, it does not seem to be any kind of stretch whatsoever to think that his progression could continue at least as much as Hamilton's has over his next 3 seasons.

Suggesting it is 'extremely unlikely' is laughable.
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Old 06-27-2018, 05:47 PM   #1884
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Yeah I don't think anyone thought Dougie was an ass. I think it's his compete level that was in question.
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Old 06-27-2018, 06:02 PM   #1885
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East West just on 960

Both Morganti and Duhatschek picked the Calgary side of the deal. Duhatschek said he was just in Toronto for the HOF stuff and many GMs and hockey people were asking him "how did Calgary do it?"

Moraganti "Sweet deal for Calgary"
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Old 06-27-2018, 06:05 PM   #1886
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Fanbase will take ten games or so but they'll grow to love our new acquisitions. Perhaps even more than they loved our previous players that are no longer here.

It takes time.
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Old 06-27-2018, 06:44 PM   #1887
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Fanbase will take ten games or so but they'll grow to love our new acquisitions. Perhaps even more than they loved our previous players that are no longer here.

It takes time.
I think the one forgiving thing about this transfer is that Hanifin is familiar with the system. From our experience with Hamonic and Hamilton, the fan base will need to be patient with the 21 year old. It has typically taken 20-30 games before each of those two defenders looked comfortable.
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Old 06-27-2018, 07:01 PM   #1888
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Said it before but imo hanifin is already better than Hamilton.

His compete below the hash marks blows Hamilton out of the water. Had hanifin played with Giordano last year I think it's safe to say hanifins advanced metrics would be through the roof. Giordano feeding me shovels of crow every game last year, only scored 4 less than Hamilton while providing so much more on nightly basis.

As a group the flames D is just a bit better now than it was last season. I don't have a bunch if stats on hand to add weight to this, but Hanifin always stood out for me in games against carolina for his mobility and first pass. Giving hamonic or stone or Giordano an easier out either by skating or passing it out would be a huge improvement. Too many times last year Giordano was left out to dry either with a lazy chip pass into the skates or a whipper along the Dasher that gio has to skate after (and get crunched).

Hamilton was a maddening player.

Compete is such a hard thing to quantify and is too.often used in a cliche usually missing the mark, but there was something always wanting about Hamilton's play.

Happy the flames are in a proactive situation like this. If true the flames have been discussing a Hamilton move for 18 months or more the Hamonic deal gets a fresh context. I don't think you can parlay a 1st and 2x2nds into hanifin, so capitalizing on Hamilton's high season as well as ferlands is a shocking change for this organization and gives me some renewed faith in Treliving; he learned from the Bouma fiasco.

If the move was to replace Hamilton with Hamonic, a guy who clearly gutted it out in the trenches last year, it removes some of the sting from that deal.

If true about how long Hamilton discussions have been going on, it also.makes me comfortable in believing this was the best deal Calgary was going to get for him. I think there was definitely something going on with New York, but Gorton is a freaking miser over there. Guy must be infuriating to deal with, so I am glad the flames circled away. Grind out another deal later where he knows if he doesn't flex, you'll walk. I wonder if the sticking point was Fox. If he has his heart set on the Islanders or rangers, that's a chip worth more to them than basically anyone else. Makes me wonder if Fox being in play to Carolina was appreciated after the fact for a bit of payback to rangers for not dealing.

Fun to think of the organizational dynamics at play.

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Old 06-27-2018, 07:17 PM   #1889
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Said it before but imo hanifin is already better than Hamilton.

His compete below the hash marks blows Hamilton out of the water. Had hanifin played with Giordano last year I think it's safe to say hanifins advanced metrics would be through the roof. Giordano feeding me shovels of crow every game last year, only scored 4 less than Hamilton while providing so much more on nightly basis.

As a group the flames D is just a bit better now than it was last season. I don't have a bunch if stats on hand to add weight to this, but Hanifin always stood out for me in games against carolina for his mobility and first pass. Giving hamonic or stone or Giordano an easier out either by skating or passing it out would be a huge improvement. Too many times last year Giordano was left out to dry either with a lazy chip pass into the skates or a whipper along the Dasher that gio has to skate after (and get crunched).

Hamilton was a maddening player.

Compete is such a hard thing to quantify and is too.often used in a cliche usually missing the mark, but there was something always wanting about Hamilton's play.

Happy the flames are in a proactive situation like this. If true the flames have been discussing a Hamilton move for 18 months or more the Hamonic deal gets a fresh context. I don't think you can parlay a 1st and 2x2nds into hanifin, so capitalizing on Hamilton's high season as well as ferlands is a shocking change for this organization and gives me some renewed faith in Treliving; he learned from the Bouma fiasco.

If the move was to replace Hamilton with Hamonic, a guy who clearly gutted it out in the trenches last year, it removes some of the sting from that deal.

If true about how long Hamilton discussions have been going on, it also.makes me comfortable in believing this was the best deal Calgary was going to get for him. I think there was definitely something going on with New York, but Gorton is a freaking miser over there. Guy must be infuriating to deal with, so I am glad the flames circled away. Grind out another deal later where he knows if he doesn't flex, you'll walk. I wonder if the sticking point was Fox. If he has his heart set on the Islanders or rangers, that's a chip worth more to them than basically anyone else. Makes me wonder if Fox being in play to Carolina was appreciated after the fact for a bit of payback to rangers for not dealing.

Fun to think of the organizational dynamics at play.
So Hamilton was a maddening player because he was missing the Mark when passing to Giordano... Yeah I can see that.
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Old 06-27-2018, 07:44 PM   #1890
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Tale of two seasons for Hanifin last year.


Dates GP G A Pts +/-

Hanifin Oct-Dec 38 7 13 20 -3

Hanifin Jan-April 39 3 8 11 -15


So he was producing at a 15 goal - 43 point clip for half the season, as a 20 year old. And it's not like he's small or anything, he's 6'3. His potential is scary. I still remember the franchise D hype he was getting back in 2015 and I don't think it's disappeared.

He's going to be special.
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Old 06-27-2018, 08:12 PM   #1891
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East West just on 960

Both Morganti and Duhatschek picked the Calgary side of the deal. Duhatschek said he was just in Toronto for the HOF stuff and many GMs and hockey people were asking him "how did Calgary do it?"

Moraganti "Sweet deal for Calgary"
https://www.sportsnet.ca/960/the-big...-john-tavares/

There's the clip. Yeah Morganti was positively gushing about the trade from the Flames perspective. Interesting that a GM told Duhatschek that it was great for the Flames that they didn't have to include Bennett to get the deal done.
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Old 06-27-2018, 08:38 PM   #1892
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East West just on 960

Both Morganti and Duhatschek picked the Calgary side of the deal. Duhatschek said he was just in Toronto for the HOF stuff and many GMs and hockey people were asking him "how did Calgary do it?"

Moraganti "Sweet deal for Calgary"
Morganti said it was a terrible trade for the Hurricanes and shows that the franchise is becoming a train wreck. It does seem to be a deal that, from Carolina's POV, was mainly for financial reasons. Treliving was fortunate to make a deal with a franchise in turmoil.

There are two groups of people who don't like this trade for the Flames: Flames homers who overrated Hamilton; and analytics nerds who are in love with Hamilton. Everyone else seems to think the Flames made out like bandits.
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Old 06-27-2018, 08:39 PM   #1893
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Said it before but imo hanifin is already better than Hamilton.

His compete below the hash marks blows Hamilton out of the water. Had hanifin played with Giordano last year I think it's safe to say hanifins advanced metrics would be through the roof. Giordano feeding me shovels of crow every game last year, only scored 4 less than Hamilton while providing so much more on nightly basis.

As a group the flames D is just a bit better now than it was last season. I don't have a bunch if stats on hand to add weight to this, but Hanifin always stood out for me in games against carolina for his mobility and first pass. Giving hamonic or stone or Giordano an easier out either by skating or passing it out would be a huge improvement. Too many times last year Giordano was left out to dry either with a lazy chip pass into the skates or a whipper along the Dasher that gio has to skate after (and get crunched).

Hamilton was a maddening player.

Compete is such a hard thing to quantify and is too.often used in a cliche usually missing the mark, but there was something always wanting about Hamilton's play.

Happy the flames are in a proactive situation like this. If true the flames have been discussing a Hamilton move for 18 months or more the Hamonic deal gets a fresh context. I don't think you can parlay a 1st and 2x2nds into hanifin, so capitalizing on Hamilton's high season as well as ferlands is a shocking change for this organization and gives me some renewed faith in Treliving; he learned from the Bouma fiasco.

If the move was to replace Hamilton with Hamonic, a guy who clearly gutted it out in the trenches last year, it removes some of the sting from that deal.

If true about how long Hamilton discussions have been going on, it also.makes me comfortable in believing this was the best deal Calgary was going to get for him. I think there was definitely something going on with New York, but Gorton is a freaking miser over there. Guy must be infuriating to deal with, so I am glad the flames circled away. Grind out another deal later where he knows if he doesn't flex, you'll walk. I wonder if the sticking point was Fox. If he has his heart set on the Islanders or rangers, that's a chip worth more to them than basically anyone else. Makes me wonder if Fox being in play to Carolina was appreciated after the fact for a bit of payback to rangers for not dealing.

Fun to think of the organizational dynamics at play.
This is one thing about the trade that I've thought about that could make it a major win for the Flames. I think we definitely took a bit more risk but I think we sold high on both Hamilton and Ferland. Ferland I'm skeptical puts it together and becomes a true 20+ goal scorer in the league. I could be wrong but it wasn't something I was confident about if he stuck with the Flames. He isn't a true top 6.

Hamilton may have topped out offensively as well. He seems like a 40-50pts player and to take that next step to 60+ isn't something I thought would happen. Regardless of that though his defensive game is always what I felt might never develop and with his lack of compete and potentially other issues, I think his value might be at its highest as well. If Hamilton is on the trade block again you can bet GM's are going to be weary.

Hanifin and Lindholm both seem like they have untapped potential. Probably more so for Hanifin but even with Lindholm he already is a decent top 6 forward and hopefully with his skill set can become a legit top 6 player. I think everyone can agree that the odds of him becoming a 50+ point player are greater than Ferlands. If Hanifin never develops into the same offensive player that Hamilton is I'm perfectly fine with that. I think he has potential to develop other aspects of his game that will ultimately make him a more valuable player.

So ya I think we are taking some risk but it is definitely calculated risk. The risk is minimal because as it stands now I think the trade is close to even with us having a lot more upside. Hamilton and Ferland may never be worth this again and we got two players I'm cautiously optimistic will improve and ultimately win us this trade.
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Old 06-27-2018, 08:44 PM   #1894
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Everyday that goes by I feel better and better about this trade, and I don't like it. I'm a Flames fan, and if this really was a fleecing of the Hurricanes it just means something else bad is going to happen.
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Old 06-27-2018, 08:51 PM   #1895
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Everyday that goes by I feel better and better about this trade, and I don't like it. I'm a Flames fan, and if this really was a fleecing of the Hurricanes it just means something else bad is going to happen.
I feel ya.

Just part of being a Flames fan at this point.

(and a Riders fan for that matter)
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Old 06-27-2018, 08:53 PM   #1896
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: Flames homers who overrated Hamilton; and analytics nerds who are in love with Hamilton.
some nerds and homers
ad hominem attacks cliff
which group for a-holes?
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Old 06-27-2018, 09:04 PM   #1897
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I think we made out like bandits.

Ferland was the most overrated Flame imo, a product of his linemates and i could see his game fall off without them and his career come to a screeching halt. I could see him out of the NHL in 2 or 3 seasons.

Hamilton put up great numbers but just seemed to be missing something in the D zone, just some bonehead/lazy plays that made you scratch your head.

Fox definitely had some value, but if he wasn't gonna sign here what are ya gonna do?

We got 2 great young players, I could see Lindholm having his breakout season on the RW of our first line. 60+ points not the 40 Ferland brought.

Hanifin seems like a great young dman with high potential and many years of team control yet.
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Old 06-27-2018, 09:05 PM   #1898
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I agree with those that like the trade more and more. Have a feeling we're not going to miss Hamilton too much, (based solely on his on ice play BTW).
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Old 06-27-2018, 09:10 PM   #1899
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It's pretty clear that fans and the analytics community value Hamilton much higher than NHL GMs do. We can also see that in the Simmonds+ for Hamilton rumours, since I would have thought Hamilton had much more value than any of these rumoured deals imply.

I don't think anyone is going to deny that. But the mark of a good GM when it comes to trading is identifying inefficiencies / misvaluations in the marketplace. The professional hockey community is far from perfect. That's what we are discussing.
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Old 06-27-2018, 09:15 PM   #1900
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I think we made out like bandits.

Ferland was the most overrated Flame imo, a product of his linemates and i could see his game fall off without them and his career come to a screeching halt. I could see him out of the NHL in 2 or 3 seasons.

Hamilton put up great numbers but just seemed to be missing something in the D zone, just some bonehead/lazy plays that made you scratch your head.

Fox definitely had some value, but if he wasn't gonna sign here what are ya gonna do?

We got 2 great young players, I could see Lindholm having his breakout season on the RW of our first line. 60+ points not the 40 Ferland brought.

Hanifin seems like a great young dman with high potential and many years of team control yet.
I wouldn't go that far, unless unforeseen injuries play a roll. Ferland is a good player. He does pretty much everything decently well to go along with a hell of a shot and a lot of toughness (when he actually chooses to be physical.)

When I saw him play for the Saskatoon Blades I thought there was no way in hell he didn't make an impact in the NHL. He was a force in junior.
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