Ongoing General Automotive Thread 2.0

[Locke]

Originally Posted by DoubleF

I can agree the van is a little bit of an odd ball at times.

Vans are better for older people due to the lower height profile, sliding doors are awesome for tighter parking spots/dumb kids and aiding the elderly, sliding or removing the middle row and a shallower but deeper trunk (almost vertical) has its pros and cons. The deeper vertical trunk means less stuff falls out from the bottom and if you use a cargo net, closer to the top as well. The space is redistributed towards the front for a more comfortable loading/unloading and seating experience for the second and third row passengers.

Trucks and SUVs have seemingly more storage in the back due to a deeper and more horizontal trunk which is more comparable to a sedan. This might work better for some and is perhaps more beneficial due to less requirements to consider stacking of certain things in the trunk. A van is typically more shallow and vertical in the same way as perhaps a hatchback or wagon?

In vacation mode, for my van, I'd typically put most of my luggage in the back and food combination in the back or mid depending on how fragile the food is (ie: is it stackable or not) due to the more vertical vs horizontal trunk space of SUV. When I reach the destination, it is indeed more of a pain in the ass to have passengers climb over these items in the middle row to get out.

But on ski trips with a group of friends, it's always nice to have a van in the group so that you can just drop down the seats and throw gear in haphazardly like an equipment room and rejuggle the seating arrangement with the other vehicles. Also nice to have it enclosed and warmed so that the snow/ice can melt and the gear won't be all wet by the time you get back to the city (I refuse their stinky clothing). Or in the summer, sometimes we consolidate a supply run/wine purchases/beach gear into the van and redistribute stuff and passengers as needed.

Flexibility is the strength of a van, but for people who have fine tuned their vehicle experience, I can totally see how that flexibility can turn into a detriment.

Plus kidnapping!

Vans dont get nearly enough credit for making kidnapping so easy an amateur can do it!

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by DoubleF

I thought they were for situations of low visibility like today. When I looked it up, it was recommended in situations such as heavy road spray on highways after rain, snow storm and fog where visibility is less than 100M. Doesn't say anything about driving slow though.

The other scenarios on when to use fog lights, sure. Perhaps I'm wrong on. But it seems odd that fog lights on a foggy day aren't recommended nor the appropriate use. I'd assume that's at least the most appropriate day to use them.

They ARE for days like today (this morning), just not in the way you’re thinking of them. They only light up the road directly in front of your vehicle and are made to cut “under” the fog so you can see lane marking better, but they don’t really help you “see” in the fog at any distance that makes a real difference. Obviously, the faster you go, the more the benefit of being able to see more clearly only the space directly in front of you shrinks.

[Locke]

Thats a good looking car Sliver, I like it. Seems slick.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Nothing to think about. I'm seeing far more women driving them than men just like I see far more men driving pickup trucks than women and I complain a lot about men and their commuter pickup trucks in the city.

At the risk of further giving the vapours to some of the more sensitive members on here, I'll add that the smaller the woman, the bigger the SUV seems to be. Perhaps it's the female equivalent of the monster-trucker-driver-with-a-small-dick stereotype?

Since women do the majority of kid hauling duty, it's natural that they have the bigger car. Very few of them seem to want a minivan (most minivans these days seem to be driven by middle-aged men) so an SUV it is, and a lot of the smaller/midsized SUVs are pretty tight inside due to the bulk of safety equipment. Hence the Canyonero.

I drive the Canyonero in our family (although huge in its day 20 years ago, it's relatively medium sized today). I'd prefer to drive something much smaller day-to-day, but we need something for family camping that can handle all the kayaks and bikes and activity crap that our wagon is just too small for. With the seats down it makes a fantastic moving/hauling truck too. I wasn't really a big SUV guy before (I would still rather daily a tiny hatchback) but it's definitely been super useful and would be hard to get rid of.

[Locke]

Minivans...

Man...I dont know who was the mastermind behind the villainization of Minivans but they did a Propaganda job Goebbels would be proud of.

Minivans are so versatile for so many things but people seem to hate them with a passion!

And now we have these gigantic tanks prowling our streets instead.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by timun

I don't disagree with your point, but you're making a bit of a disingenuous comparison here. It's not as though we don't consider the Escalade to be a "behemoth" vehicle: we do. And we always have, since it was introduced. The Suburban(/Tahoe) it's based on was always one of the biggest vehicles available to "personal" consumers, and we've always thought they were very, very big.

What has changed is not the absolute extremes of the sizes of vehicles, but the average. It's people driving RAV4s and Highlanders instead of Corollas and Camrys that has changed quite substantially. Escalades and the like have been around for a long time, and yes they are getting somewhat larger, but the real shift is that the average car form isn't a sedan or a wagon anymore.

That's a very good point. On top of the average vehicle size getting bigger, the hood heights keep going up with ever generation. Unfortunately that site doesn't have an older model Suburban, but here's an older Tahoe vs. the current one:

https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/com...ahoe-2020-suv/

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Locke

Minivans...

Man...I dont know who was the mastermind behind the villainization of Minivans but they did a Propaganda job Goebbels would be proud of.

Minivans are so versatile for so many things but people seem to hate them with a passion!

And now we have these gigantic tanks prowling our streets instead.

Up until maybe 15 years ago, minivans were horrid contraptions. It wasn't propaganda when you look back at Astro vans, windstars, aerostars, old caravans, venturas, lumina vans.

He'll even the older oddiseys and whatever the Toyota are called were hot poo.

They've come a long way and the stigma should have died but the hate was extremely well earned. And I know I'm forgetting some horrible m9nsters too. Like the Pontiacs. Or the Mercedes B whatevers.

These days I don't think you can get much better than an AWD Town and Country though, they're pretty nice. Or the Carnival from Kia with the fully reclining 2nd row captains chairs.

[Locke]

My Sister-in-Law rocked an Odyssey for years and that thing was like the Rolls Royce of Minivans...what a car!

I rented a Town and Country for a move once and that thing was amazing. The amount of stuff you could fit in that thing? And the Stow-and-Go seats? Thing of beauty!

I grew up with my mom driving a succession of Dodge Caravans.

Oh yes! We had the white one with the faux-wood paneling and it was probably the greatest vehicle my family ever owned. That bitch made it to Ontario and back several times on family vacations...'twas a mighty steed!

[Table 5]

What's funny with the van hate is that many larger SUV/crossovers are slowly morphing into pseudo-vans anyway. They emphasize space, must have 3 rows, and prioritize on-road mannerisms/comfort over any off-road capability. Apart from not having sliding doors, and a slightly more protruded front, I'm not really sure there's a material difference between something like a Kia Telluride and a Carnival. But don't you dare call the former a van.

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Up until maybe 15 years ago, minivans were horrid contraptions. It wasn't propaganda when you look back at Astro vans, windstars, aerostars, old caravans, venturas, lumina vans.

He'll even the older oddiseys and whatever the Toyota are called were hot poo.

They've come a long way and the stigma should have died but the hate was extremely well earned. And I know I'm forgetting some horrible m9nsters too. Like the Pontiacs. Or the Mercedes B whatevers.

These days I don't think you can get much better than an AWD Town and Country though, they're pretty nice. Or the Carnival from Kia with the fully reclining 2nd row captains chairs.

I've always wondered what happened to wagons and if the stigma of wagons dragged down vans. Both are nice. It's hard to be badass with something nice.

I agree with some of the #### vans that were on the market like the Dodge non-Caravan that only opened on one side, the rattles, the flipping, poor power to weight ratio, reliability etc. didn't help, but SUVs survived the whole tipping when driving too fast thing without a scratch and vans were sent to eternal damnation. The soccer mom meme persists even though soccer moms migrated to SUVs decades ago.

For the comment about smaller person in bigger vehicle, I believe it's because they think a bigger vehicle protects more in a collision. Thus it's a game of brinkmanship to see who has the vehicle that shrugs off a collision and who has a vehicle that collapses under minor impact.

[Locke]

This Majestic steed....awww yiss!

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Locke

Minivans...

Man...I dont know who was the mastermind behind the villainization of Minivans but they did a Propaganda job Goebbels would be proud of.

Minivans are so versatile for so many things but people seem to hate them with a passion!

And now we have these gigantic tanks prowling our streets instead.

I think it started with the whole soccer mom thing as a turning point where minivans became really uncool. Years back we spent a week in Vancouver and rented a minivan to haul around the family on vacation. Despite the van exceeding our needs and expectations, my wife wanted nothing to do with driving one because of the stigma attached to it.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I think it started with the whole soccer mom thing as a turning point where minivans became really uncool. Years back we spent a week in Vancouver and rented a minivan to haul around the family on vacation. Despite the van exceeding our needs and expectations, my wife wanted nothing to do with driving one because of the stigma attached to it.

My wife is the same way...but that doesnt change the reality that Minivans are practical and great! But people 'hate' them because its cool to hate them. Not me man. Not me.

Just like station-wagons. I love 'em.

My Jeep Patriot was awesome. I remember someone once throwing shade:

"You know that thing is just a glorified Station-wagon right?"

Um. I dont know that its even 'glorified.' Its got 4 doors, a hatch, low centre of gravity, AWD...its glued to the road in the worst conditions. Whats the problem?

I loved that car. It could've used a little more juice, but other than that...it was awesome!

[Fuzz]

Mazda perfected the minivan with the MPV in 1989, and it's all been downhill since then.

[dammage79]

On the Wagon front, Dodge missed a golden opportunity to bring back the Magnum. Chevy Could have done something with the SS. Yes the SS that Canada never got, was the spiritual successor to the G8 GT (One of the last great Sedans BTW).

Wagons got the bad rap from the bloated 80 ford's and Oldsmobile wagons.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Mazda perfected the minivan with the MPV in 1989, and it's all been downhill since then.

No way. Sliding doors are one of the best things about a minivan.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I think it started with the whole soccer mom thing as a turning point where minivans became really uncool. Years back we spent a week in Vancouver and rented a minivan to haul around the family on vacation. Despite the van exceeding our needs and expectations, my wife wanted nothing to do with driving one because of the stigma attached to it.

"I don't want a van. Everyone will think I'm a soccer mom!" - Every soccer mom in a jellybean crossover.

My wife is the same, is vehemently against driving a van, yet would be more than ok with driving the generic crossover that has replaced the van as the mom-mobile. Atleast she still thinks wagons are cool.

Having said that, I'm not really sure what the big deal is with driving a mom-mobile. Being a good mom is awesome. It may not be cool, but just like being a dad, you'll never be cool. No matter what you drive, nobody will mistake you for a 20 year old supermodel when you have 2 kids and all 5 bags of their crap draped all over you. Just embrace reality and make your life easier.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Sliver

No way. Sliding doors are one of the best things about a minivan.

Naw, the normal door was great. Back then most sliding doors sucked anyway. I don't ever remember thinking "I wish this thing slid". I do remember the first time someone tried getting out of the drivers side of a dual rear slide minivan(can't remember the model) at the gas station while I was pumping gas, and the design fail of that particular scenario.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Sliver

No way. Sliding doors are one of the best things about a minivan.

In my lifetime I have learned that you'll never appreciate a sliding door more than when you slam it shut when a Deer is about to hammer it...

"Close it! Close it! Close it!!!!"

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Mazda perfected the minivan with the MPV in 1989, and it's all been downhill since then.

Previa >>> MPV