Alec Guinness didn't even like the original Star Wars, and Harrison Ford couldn't wait for Disney to kill off Solo and called the character boring.
So yes while they had great screen presence, they themselves didn't even like the movies.
The Empire in the original series was a very thinly veiled Third Reich rip off. I'm not sure the Mon Camalari where meant to be any positive social message as much as Lucas and friends wanted to make some cool looking aliens.
I like the original movies, but to me they are just mostly fun action/adventure movies the same as they are currently making.
If you read reviews online, you will see a lot of reviewers having outright temper tantrums over:
A: Luke Skywalker being different in the Last Jedi compared to the previous movies.
B: Social Justice Warriors/Politics/Mary Sue
I think its clear that Disney doesn't want every future Star Wars film to just be an homage to the original series/trip down nostalgia lane so is actively wrapping up the story lines of the original cast.
I'm fine with this as I don't have any kind of special connection to the original.
A lot of the criticisms of the film are about legitimate problems with the new movie, but I also feel that many of them are too wrapped up in being upset that Rian Johnson didn't cater to the original storyline.
This isn't even true....
Quote:
There's a sort of wonderful freshness about it... like a wonderful fresh air. When I came out of the cinema... I thought, 'London's sort of gritty, and dirty and sort of rubbish, isn't it?' Because this had all been so invigorating.
Harrison Ford also argued that Solo should die, because it would increase the utility of the character. By all accounts, even his own, Ford thoroughly enjoyed the movie and working on it:
On the other side of the coin, it is really weird to read this thread like it is the first and only movie in history to be objectively bad.
There's no discussion. Just a few people sabotaging this thread with the same complaints over and over and over and over.
And it wouldn't be so obnoxious and annoying if we were talking about Battlefield Earth or the prequels or some other movie that was universally hated by fans, critics and general movie goers alike. This one has quite a bit of praise. So much that you could probably say it was met with widespread positive reviews.
And the only response is "well it's dumb and anyone who doesn't realize it is just blind to the star wars brand". lol ok then.
The simple solution to this is stop engaging the people who didn't like the movie and start discussing it.
Stop talking about the reason why people didn't like the movie. It wasn't because we didn't get the social message or we were too caught up with the original. Also, stop making statements about how the original was trash. When you insult people and insult a beloved movie, expect to get replies.
I also think you'll notice that a lot of the people trashing the movie are bringing up specific plot points and going quite in depth into their analysis. Those loving the movie are simply stating how great it was.
Quite frankly, I think a major reason why there's so little actual discussion is that Johnson went out of his way to squash plot points that people were going to discuss. For example, Snoke's origin, Ray's parentage, Ren turning back to the light side, etc...
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Harrison Ford also argued that Solo should die, because it would increase the utility of the character. By all accounts, even his own, Ford thoroughly enjoyed the movie and working on it:
The whole Alec Guiness hated Star Wars thing has become this bigger then life legend. He was a classically trained serious actor, so when he read the script and signed on he saw it as fairy tale nonsense, But as pointed out above after he saw it in the theatre he came around to it.
The bottom line as well, is if you look at the interviews by people like Fisher and Ford and Mark, they thought that him being in this movie and on the set was essential to the legitimacy of the movie, because frankly the two best known actors were Guiness and Cushing, everyone else was pretty much a unknown.
They also got what is basically actor 101 classes from Guiness who was committed to the process of making the movie, but again until he saw the final product thought it was just a nonsensical movie.
With Solo, he actually loved working with Lucas, and loved the character of Han Solo. His two main issues were the dialogue or as he basically said to Lucas. "You might be able to write this, but we have to read it". And that after the events of ANH and Empire there was really nowhere for Solo to go except to be a hanger on to the main duel, and his death would add weight to the plot.
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The fact that people have to try to detract from the original trilogy to justify how poor the new one is, bottles my mind.
If the originals were that bad no one would be sitting here discussing them 40 years later. Obviously there was something special about those films that has us all here figuring out how new content fits into the legacy, so lets at the very least give them their due.
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-- Frank Musil - Early January 1994
Quite frankly, I think a major reason why there's so little actual discussion is that Johnson went out of his way to squash plot points that people were going to discuss. For example, Snoke's origin, Ray's parentage, Ren turning back to the light side, etc...
I also think that some of the people that are positive about the new film are happy about that because they want to revel in the disappointment of the fandom. How many times have we seen the term "nerd rage" thrown around about legitimate criticism? Its like there is some resentment towards people who actually liked what Star Wars was, and then enjoying the fact that the Star Wars gameboard got flipped over and pieces scattered everywhere.
__________________
A few weeks after crashing head-first into the boards (denting his helmet and being unable to move for a little while) following a hit from behind by Bob Errey, the Calgary Flames player explains:
"I was like Christ, lying on my back, with my arms outstretched, crucified"
-- Frank Musil - Early January 1994
The fact that people have to try to detract from the original trilogy to justify how poor the new one is, bottles my mind.
If the originals were that bad no one would be sitting here discussing them 40 years later. Obviously there was something special about those films that has us all here figuring out how new content fits into the legacy, so lets at the very least give them their due.
Loved the originals, and it created a pretty big interest in me obviously. I even managed to forgive them for the stupid Ewoks and their armor piercing arrows and rocks.
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Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
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The fact that people have to try to detract from the original trilogy to justify how poor the new one is, bottles my mind.
If the originals were that bad no one would be sitting here discussing them 40 years later. Obviously there was something special about those films that has us all here figuring out how new content fits into the legacy, so lets at the very least give them their due.
The originals were just that original and not just in terms of Star Wars but in terms of the fantasy genre in general and in terms of special effects. I can now see 10 file a year that are more or less The Heros Journey. So for something to be good now it needs to be significantly better than any of the OT movies were
So the newness of the world and genre made up for the faults and nostalgia carried us the rest of the way. The veneration of the OT has always been far above the quality of the OT. That's just the nature of nostalgia.
The whole Alec Guiness hated Star Wars thing has become this bigger then life legend. He was a classically trained serious actor, so when he read the script and signed on he saw it as fairy tale nonsense, But as pointed out above after he saw it in the theatre he came around to it.
The bottom line as well, is if you look at the interviews by people like Fisher and Ford and Mark, they thought that him being in this movie and on the set was essential to the legitimacy of the movie, because frankly the two best known actors were Guiness and Cushing, everyone else was pretty much a unknown.
They also got what is basically actor 101 classes from Guiness who was committed to the process of making the movie, but again until he saw the final product thought it was just a nonsensical movie.
With Solo, he actually loved working with Lucas, and loved the character of Han Solo. His two main issues were the dialogue or as he basically said to Lucas. "You might be able to write this, but we have to read it". And that after the events of ANH and Empire there was really nowhere for Solo to go except to be a hanger on to the main duel, and his death would add weight to the plot.
From what I understand of Guinness he found the dialogue "ropey" but then was actually given the chance to re-write much of it. In that interview I linked, Guinness was actually given an increase in the share in the profits of the movie for the re-writes he did. Guinness had enough faith in the movie to agree to work on it for a share of the profits. His share was increased from 2% to 2.25% as compensation for the edits he made.
Apparently the problems kept on going. The first cut of Star Wars was also totally non-sensical and awful. Lucas as a whole was apparently constantly writing and re-writing the story as he went along, and changing major plot points. So Guinness not liking the original script, was probably justified as it was apparently awful and had little in common with the finished project.
I found a site with the original scripts. I wonder which one Guinness read:
From what I understand of Guinness he found the dialogue "ropey" but then was actually given the chance to re-write much of it. In that interview I linked, Guinness was actually given an increase in the share in the profits of the movie for the re-writes he did. Guinness had enough faith in the movie to agree to work on it for a share of the profits. His share was increased from 2% to 2.25% as compensation for the edits he made.
Apparently the problems kept on going. The first cut of Star Wars was also totally non-sensical and awful. Lucas as a whole was apparently constantly writing and re-writing the story as he went along, and changing major plot points. So Guinness not liking the original script, was probably justified as it was apparently awful and had little in common with the finished project.
I found a site with the original scripts. I wonder which one Guinness read:
Harrison Ford also argued that Solo should die, because it would increase the utility of the character. By all accounts, even his own, Ford thoroughly enjoyed the movie and working on it:
Well, You don't think that Alec Guiness's opinion on the movie series was somewhat improved after he learned that Star Wars was a box office smash that would make him obscenely wealthy?
Harrison Ford, I think cared only about Star Wars for the boost to his career that it got him. He probably enjoyed making the movie like you say. I think he got pretty tired of the fan cult surrounding the films after a while.
Again, I like the original films. I think they are fun. I don't think they are flawless, and while I'm not saying that you are disliking The Last Jedi for the reasons I stated in my first post, that is definitely happening, and in great numbers.
When you go online and read fan reviews, a large number of them are typed out in ALL CAPS RAGE, going off about how Luke Skywalker would have never done this or that.
Fans are claiming its a total affront to the Star Wars legacy. I think its undeniable that much of the dislike for this movie from some angles is rooted in it being offensive to some of the fandom that have strong feelings on how Star Wars should go.
Well, You don't think that Alec Guiness's opinion on the movie series was somewhat improved after he learned that Star Wars was a box office smash that would make him obscenely wealthy?
Harrison Ford, I think cared only about Star Wars for the boost to his career that it got him. He probably enjoyed making the movie like you say. I think he got pretty tired of the fan cult surrounding the films after a while.
Again, I like the original films. I think they are fun. I don't think they are flawless, and while I'm not saying that you are disliking The Last Jedi for the reasons I stated in my first post, that is definitely happening, and in great numbers.
When you go online and read fan reviews, a large number of them are typed out in ALL CAPS RAGE, going off about how Luke Skywalker would have never done this or that.
Fans are claiming its a total affront to the Star Wars legacy. I think its undeniable that much of the dislike for this movie from some angles is rooted in it being offensive to some of the fandom that have strong feelings on how Star Wars should go.
I think its understandable that he would have....
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The first Star Wars movie is a true cinematic masterpiece in many ways, one of the very few films I would call essentially flawless. I feel people have lost sight of just how good the movie actually is just on it's own, as it's become impossible to see the movie with fresh eyes. Even if you're seeing it for the first time, you already inevitably know pretty much everything about it.
There's a reason it was such a massive hit among such a wide audience in it's day, before Star Wars was popular just because it was Star Wars.
(And no, ESB is not even a serious contender for being better. It's frankly a pretty mediocre film until about the last 30 minutes or so, which admittedly rock.)
The first Star Wars movie is a true cinematic masterpiece in many ways, one of the very few films I would call essentially flawless. I feel people have lost sight of just how good the movie actually is just on it's own, as it's become impossible to see the movie with fresh eyes. Even if you're seeing it for the first time, you already inevitably know pretty much everything about it.
There's a reason it was such a massive hit among such a wide audience in it's day, before Star Wars was popular just because it was Star Wars.
(And no, ESB is not even a serious contender for being better. It's frankly a pretty mediocre film until about the last 30 minutes or so, which admittedly rock.)
I don't want to get this too off topic but can't ignore you saying one of my favourite movies ever is mediocre.
They are both great movies and it is hard to compare the first film, which introduces the characters and universe, with the second film, which puts those characters into difficult situations, however I have always given ANH a 9 and ESB a 10.
AHN is essentially a western in space with a young hero assembling a posse to rescue a woman from a fortress. The story is very well told however it is a simple plot we have seen before. ESB on the other hand has an original plot filled with great twists and turns. Also, the entire film is great not just the last 30 minutes. You have the battle of Hoth, meeting Yoda, and the Falcon in the asteroid belt. It is also brilliant at developing the Han and Leia relationship with some great dialog between them.
I watched it again and I have to say I liked it more upon the second viewing.
The criticisms are still valid, but I find in the theater you are so focused on the film that those are hyper-criticisms.
For instance, I totally missed the 'Leia flying through space' and the entire casino planet scenes while playing with my dog and refilling my drink and I felt that the film benefited from this appreciably.
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If you are flammable and have legs, you are never blocking a Fire Exit. - Mitch Hedberg
I watched it again and I have to say I liked it more upon the second viewing.
The criticisms are still valid, but I find in the theater you are so focused on the film that those are hyper-criticisms.
For instance, I totally missed the 'Leia flying through space' and the entire casino planet scenes while playing with my dog and refilling my drink and I felt that the film benefited from this appreciably.
Those two are really key criticisms of the movie. The Leia thing because it seemed stupid and over powered, and the Casino Planet because it was fairly ham handed.
I haven't watched TFA for over a year, which is funny for me, because I used to be the guy that would pull the movies out once in a while and watch them, I expect that I'll probably watch it before I watch TLJ again, but I don't have the excitement that I had in terms of a Star Wars movie release.
It might have been worse apathy if it wasn't for Rebels to be honest.
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I don't want to get this too off topic but can't ignore you saying one of my favourite movies ever is mediocre.
The movie as a whole isn't mediocre, but it's lifted above mediocrity by last half hour or so, which on the other hand is arguably the best half hour in any Star Wars movie. It's just not as well paced and not as coherent as a whole. The space worm is still one of the dumbest things in any Star Wars film, and really the story of how the characters end up in Cloud City isn't that interesting, even though it takes up half the film.
There's also the problem that Han and Leia romance is really cringeworthy. It wasn't great back in the day (I remember that it made me really uncomfortable as a kid, before I had words to describe the problem) and today it's held up as an example of movies glorifying really harmful ideas of masculinity and romance.
Small rant: I want to buy the movie digitally, as I have a new 4K TV and 4K Apple TV. Nope, turns out, Disney owned movies are not released in 4K on apples platform. (Had to do a double take, but nope Thor is not in 4K either)
Turns out I need another platform/app... something called Vudu, which I refuse to get by the way. So now my options are to buy it in HD, or wait another couple weeks for the 4K Blu-Ray. What stupid nonsense is this?
