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Old 05-20-2020, 10:25 PM   #1
curves2000
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Default The "We can do better for our parents/grandparents" Senior Care Thread

Hi all,

I was hoping to start a sticky thread for all of us CP members to try and discuss, coordinate and exchange ideas and information on seniors care.

Given the state of the seniors care facilities during Covid and the rapidly changing demographics with our parents and grandparents, I think it's reasonable for us all to try and do a little more. It was hard for me to hear the medical professionals in Canada in all the provinces continue reminding us again and again to do basic things like call and message our older loved ones. Things like this may come natural to a lot of us but for others, we may need to step it up.

Hopefully this thread can be a place where we can discuss everything from nutrition, helpful seniors exercises and stretches , mental health support and various conditions our elderly are suffering with. We can than discuss specialists, products, services and ideas on how best to support our loved ones during their senior years.

It's an issue that affects us all and I think it's a duty we should take upon ourselves to assist as much as possible and hopefully this thread can assist in some ways.
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Old 05-23-2020, 08:37 AM   #2
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I think we're letting ourselves live too long with no opportunity for a reasonable quality of life.

I remember my friend's grandma in her 90s telling us, 'you don't want to reach my age...all your friends are dead.'

I remember my uncle saying about his mom how he'd put a pillow over her head 'if he loved her more' once she lost her marbles due to dimentia.

My wife's grandma had signed a do not recussitate order, but ended up recussitated in the hospital before the order had made its way into the medical system. She was so fataing mad to have to keep living with her crappy health. She was crying, 'what am I doing here?'

Out of compassion, we don't let dogs and cats live in the same conditions we guilt the elderly into existing with for years on end.

Basically, once someone becomes a great grandparent they are redundant, super old, not relevant and they know it. I've yet to talk to one that isn't ready to go. Very few thrive in these old folks homes. They're just pergatories.

It also costs a fortune to keep these people in their barely-alive condition, takes a ton of resources and is ill-conceived. The kindest thing we could do is provide access to euthanasia and let people call it a day easily and without guilt.
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Old 05-23-2020, 08:44 AM   #3
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I have a healthy 91 year-old Grandpa who would disagree with your assessment as a function of age. I also had a Great Grandma live until 97 and lived in a low assistance facility for 15 years. They just did cleaning and prepared dinners. She was quite happy and productive aside from the last 6 months when her mobility fell off rapidly.

I do agree with you on euthanasia should be an option for anyone of sound mind or a living will that specifies euthanasia at a certain point of loss of function.
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Old 05-23-2020, 08:49 AM   #4
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My dream is to buy a house somewhere that I can design/build a laneway house in the back for my parents, so I can help them as they get older, without having to put them in a home.
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Old 05-23-2020, 09:12 AM   #5
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^ a noble idea for sure; and it may work out great if your parents stay mentally and physically healthy.

My mom lived for the past 6 years in an assisted living facility. She had Parkinson’s, Alzheimer’s and dementia. Taking care of her would have almost been a full time job. Feeding, bathing, personal care, entertainments/mental stimulation.

And at $4,000+ per month, not cheap
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Old 05-23-2020, 09:14 AM   #6
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Presently, one of my parents has advanced dementia and mobility issues and requires 24-hour assistance. We were on the list for a care home, but have been getting in-home care in the meantime. Government programs pay for the bulk of this, but it is still very expensive. We also backfill by going over there and helping one day a week. It is very hard, as it involves lifting and intimate personal care plus the emotional challenges of dealing with the confusion and bouts of anger triggered by the dementia. My father in law is also now diagnosed with early onset dementia, but is still highly functioning. I honestly get sick to my stomach when I try to consider what will happen when he gets to a more advanced stage and also requires full time care.

The programs Alberta has presently are actually very good compared to what is available in BC, for example. Given the aging population and the bankrupting of federal and provincial finances that is going on presently, I don't see how there is any hope for maintaining what we have now, let alone doing better in the future. If you want better, it will likely fall on you to provide that care, and you should probably start planning for that now.

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Old 05-23-2020, 06:32 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Sliver View Post
I think we're letting ourselves live too long with no opportunity for a reasonable quality of life.

I remember my friend's grandma in her 90s telling us, 'you don't want to reach my age...all your friends are dead.'

I remember my uncle saying about his mom how he'd put a pillow over her head 'if he loved her more' once she lost her marbles due to dimentia.

My wife's grandma had signed a do not recussitate order, but ended up recussitated in the hospital before the order had made its way into the medical system. She was so fataing mad to have to keep living with her crappy health. She was crying, 'what am I doing here?'

Out of compassion, we don't let dogs and cats live in the same conditions we guilt the elderly into existing with for years on end.

Basically, once someone becomes a great grandparent they are redundant, super old, not relevant and they know it. I've yet to talk to one that isn't ready to go. Very few thrive in these old folks homes. They're just pergatories.

It also costs a fortune to keep these people in their barely-alive condition, takes a ton of resources and is ill-conceived. The kindest thing we could do is provide access to euthanasia and let people call it a day easily and without guilt.
I lost my grandfather this past October at the age of 86. I was fortunate to have the chance to fly out to Kelowna and see him one last time the week prior.

Note I didn't say I was 'lucky', as luck had nothing to do with it; I knew when he was going to go. My grandfather got the option -- similar to what you're talking about -- to go on his own terms. He'd spent the last several years doing dialysis for his failing kidneys. He was healthy for most of his life, but he just got to that point in life where things start breaking down like an off-warranty Land Rover. He was finally ready and he made the decision to discontinue his dialysis, which gave him a window of about 7 days before he would just go to sleep and not wake up again. Any medical interventions were solely to keep him comfortable and pain free.

It isn't quite the 'access to euthanasia' that you're talking about, but he got to go with dignity, fully coherent and sharp as a tack. I would want that for myself and for my loved ones too, because I've seen people with dementia or terminal cancers, and it is absolutely heart wrenching to watch them suffer. Not everyone would take the option if presented, and there's nothing wrong with that. But having the option to go on your own terms seems like the compassionate thing for us as a society to allow.
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Old 05-23-2020, 07:46 PM   #8
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It isn't quite the 'access to euthanasia' that you're talking about, but he got to go with dignity, fully coherent and sharp as a tack. I would want that for myself and for my loved ones too, because I've seen people with dementia or terminal cancers, and it is absolutely heart wrenching to watch them suffer. Not everyone would take the option if presented, and there's nothing wrong with that. But having the option to go on your own terms seems like the compassionate thing for us as a society to allow.
I'm with you on this. My grandpa passed recently, and I know that if he'd been able to, he'd have chosen this option for himself. He 'checked out' about 3 years ago, when his health really started nose-diving. He was alive, but he hated it. He could barely get out of bed on his good days.

A friend's mother (in her late 80's) recently made the decision to self end, and she was happier than she'd been in several years, according to my friend, after finally being able to make the decision. Her health was failing, and she had a terminal condition, which is the only reason she was 'allowed' to self end "early".

We really need to look at this option more and advocate for it. Both myself and my friend are now much more involved in being allowed to choose to die with dignity, on our own terms. It's long, long past due that we, as a society, arrange and accept this.

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Old 05-23-2020, 07:53 PM   #9
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I do not want to go into a home if and when I am unable to take care of myself and don’t want to put my kid through that.

I don’t know if anyone saw the vid of a guy with mental issues pounding on an old guy in a home last week. I do not want to go into a home.
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Old 05-23-2020, 09:07 PM   #10
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I think we're letting ourselves live too long with no opportunity for a reasonable quality of life.

I remember my friend's grandma in her 90s telling us, 'you don't want to reach my age...all your friends are dead.'

I remember my uncle saying about his mom how he'd put a pillow over her head 'if he loved her more' once she lost her marbles due to dimentia.

My wife's grandma had signed a do not recussitate order, but ended up recussitated in the hospital before the order had made its way into the medical system. She was so fataing mad to have to keep living with her crappy health. She was crying, 'what am I doing here?'

Out of compassion, we don't let dogs and cats live in the same conditions we guilt the elderly into existing with for years on end.

Basically, once someone becomes a great grandparent they are redundant, super old, not relevant and they know it. I've yet to talk to one that isn't ready to go. Very few thrive in these old folks homes. They're just pergatories.

It also costs a fortune to keep these people in their barely-alive condition, takes a ton of resources and is ill-conceived. The kindest thing we could do is provide access to euthanasia and let people call it a day easily and without guilt.
The law around Medically Assisted Death is evolving in Canada. Right now you cant say in a Health Directive that you would be in favor of this I the future. You can only make the decision at the relevant time if you are competent and meet all the other criteria. Those situations are rare - most people are not competent when the time comes.

I think the law will be expanded in the direction of allowing for future planning for this.
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Old 05-23-2020, 09:12 PM   #11
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The people that work at the Care Homes are saints. Such a difficult job. I think in Europe and Asia more elders end out their lives at home with their children?

My parents did not want to put that burden on us. I never thought I would ever want to live in a care home, but I see now how much attention some seniors need around the clock.

Medical science has extended our lifespans, but it is not always a good quality of life at the end.

Dementia claimed my father - it was heartbreaking to see him slowly fade away from us. Like "Flowers For Algernon". A brilliant man became like a three year old.
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Old 05-24-2020, 02:26 PM   #12
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Some of the old age homes I have gone into are downright depressing. All you can smell is urine. If a person was forced to put one of his/her loved ones in one, I would suggest doing a very rigorous appraisal beforehand.

I think there are a number of things that could be done to significantly upgrade the state of nursing homes in Canada:

1. Make sure there is a competent and caring administration, where the clients come first...not sacrificing essentials for the sake of making a profit.

2. Maintain a good quality of food, preferably made on site. For example, not that frozen crap shipped from BC. Eating is high on the list of things seniors look forward to.

3. Higher quality of workers regarding education, work ethic, language skills, demonstrated empathy for seniors, etc., and pay them enough to have a decent living. Many immigrants work at these homes, and while many are saints, some are just not suited for this type of work.

4. Set reasonable limits for number of clients, a worker is expected to attend to in an 8 hour shift. A friend of ours was suddenly expected to look after 20 seniors a night, which was up from her usual 10, when the UCP made their cutbacks. For her it was an impossible task and she decided to quit.

5. Government inspection should be done much more often, and there should be adequate fines for non compliance.

6. Government funding for activity aids, to iimprove quality of life.

7. Have plan in place for pandemics, or infection outbreaks.

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Old 05-24-2020, 03:36 PM   #13
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I believe there is an element of truth to the idea that the ones in nursing homes, who receive the most visits by relatives or friends, often receive the most care and attention by the staff.

My wife and I used to pick an elderly gentleman up every Sunday and take him to church and out for lunch. His only relative, his sister, lived in Victoria. If he needed things like his teeth cleaned more often, or if he needed a warmer jacket, I would bring it to their attention. As a result, he ended up in one of the best rooms in the place, with a view of the mountains.
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Old 05-24-2020, 03:48 PM   #14
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Some of the old age homes I have gone into are downright depressing. All you can smell is urine. If a person was forced to put one of his/her loved ones in one, I would suggest doing a very rigorous appraisal beforehand.

I think there are a number of things that could be done to significantly upgrade the state of nursing homes in Canada:

1. Make sure there is a competent and caring administration, where the clients come first...not sacrificing essentials for the sake of making a profit.

2. Maintain a good quality of food, preferably made on site. For example, not that frozen crap shipped from BC. Eating is high on the list of things seniors look forward to.

3. Higher quality of workers regarding education, work ethic, language skills, demonstrated empathy for seniors, etc., and pay them enough to have a decent living. Many immigrants work at these homes, and while many are saints, some are just not suited for this type of work.

4. Set reasonable limits for number of clients, a worker is expected to attend to in an 8 hour shift. A friend of ours was suddenly expected to look after 20 seniors a night, which was up from her usual 10, when the UCP made their cutbacks. For her it was an impossible task and she decided to quit.

5. Government inspection should be done much more often, and there should be adequate fines for non compliance.

6. Government funding for activity aids, to iimprove quality of life.

7. Have plan in place for pandemics, or infection outbreaks.
And who is going to pay for this ?

There are amazing old age homes if you want/are able to pay for it.

Like everything - education , healthcare, nursing homes - if you expect the government to pay and give you the best service you better be willing to pay much more in taxes, which people usually aren’t.
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Old 05-24-2020, 06:57 PM   #15
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And who is going to pay for this ?

There are amazing old age homes if you want/are able to pay for it.

Like everything - education , healthcare, nursing homes - if you expect the government to pay and give you the best service you better be willing to pay much more in taxes, which people usually aren’t.
I spent 7 years volunteering in care homes. More often than not there wasn't adequate staffing to maintain a proper level of care. PCA's couldn't do a proper job due to the stress of high patient levels. The smell of urine and body odor are also concerns that I have. Worst offenders are the private for profit.

I was visiting a blind woman in her 80's and it wasn't hard to notice the above. When she passed away I said enough is enough, as I couldn't stomach the conditions in those places.

The above is a major reason my elderly mother is with me as opposed to a care facility.
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Old 05-24-2020, 08:03 PM   #16
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A lot of due diligence is really the key to getting your loved on to a good place. When my grandmother suffered kidney failure a couple years ago, she was on her death bed. Miraculously she survived, but not before suffering permanent physical damage and it also seemed to accelerate her onset of dementia. My Mom and her siblings scoured the city before choosing the residence she is in now.

The easy way would have been to select a place cheap and easy to get into. I was with my Mom checking out some places and I could not in good conscious have left my grandmother in some of those places we saw. I was actually shocked that places like that could exist in Calgary, let alone Canada.

We did our due diligence and found a more expensive place, yet IMO it's pretty decent all things considered. It also helps that my Mom is from a family of 6 children so pooling together money from each family made it possible to get a nice place. But I could totally envision a scenario where it's a single offspring trying to find someplace for their elderly parent and can only afford the bottom of the barrel, so to speak.

Unfortunately my Grandmother's place has had a big outbreak of Covid (40+ cases) so just because you pay for an expensive places doesn't mean it's 100% safe. Overall I do think that our society does need to step up when it comes to caring for the elderly. Both my granmother's are very fortunate to be in the residences they are, but I know that's not always the case with everyone.
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Old 05-25-2020, 08:29 AM   #17
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I spent 7 years volunteering in care homes. More often than not there wasn't adequate staffing to maintain a proper level of care. PCA's couldn't do a proper job due to the stress of high patient levels. The smell of urine and body odor are also concerns that I have. Worst offenders are the private for profit.

I was visiting a blind woman in her 80's and it wasn't hard to notice the above. When she passed away I said enough is enough, as I couldn't stomach the conditions in those places.

The above is a major reason my elderly mother is with me as opposed to a care facility.
But this didnt answer the question at all I asked : Who is going to pay for better care?

The fact you were volunteering shows how cash strapped these places are.

Either we have :

1. A shortage of supply for good quality care that people are willing to pay for - In which case there is a great opportunity for business
2. A shortage in demand for the good quality care due to their costs

It is almost certainly #2. This is why places cut costs at every corner.

It is similar to the airline business. Everyone complains about bad food, small, seats, etc but keep pressuring the airlines to lower costs.

Unless we go to a government subsidized model where everyone gets amazing care, it just wont happen.

And then the ultimate question as with everything "Who will pay for these government costs"

People like to preach about better education, better medical, better long term care facilities, but they vote with their wallet, which is for lower taxes usually.

You can't have it both ways!

(And yes I know I am ignore inefficiency arguments, better care per $ spent, etc ,etc)
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Old 05-25-2020, 08:43 AM   #18
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And who is going to pay for this ?

There are amazing old age homes if you want/are able to pay for it.

Like everything - education , healthcare, nursing homes - if you expect the government to pay and give you the best service you better be willing to pay much more in taxes, which people usually aren’t.
In Ontario at least - for Covid 19 - you are much better off being in a publically funded LTC than a privately funded one.

https://www.thestar.com/business/202...reholders.html
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Old 05-25-2020, 08:47 AM   #19
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As Nancy commented above, with the demographic trend Canada is on, we're going to struggle just to maintain the capacity and level of service we have, let alone improve it.

As longevity increases, so does the proportion of seniors with dementia. Care homes cost around $4k a month. Do the math and calculate how long your parents could afford a care facility at $4k a month each. And remember - that's just to maintain our current standards, not improve them.
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Old 05-25-2020, 10:54 AM   #20
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As Nancy commented above, with the demographic trend Canada is on, we're going to struggle just to maintain the capacity and level of service we have, let alone improve it.

As longevity increases, so does the proportion of seniors with dementia. Care homes cost around $4k a month. Do the math and calculate how long your parents could afford a care facility at $4k a month each. And remember - that's just to maintain our current standards, not improve them.
And that's where it's like, WTF are we even doing? Why is longevity a goal? Who wants to live into their late 80s and 90s? Of course you'll get a few CPers who will say their grandpa was sharp as a tack right up until his 97th birthday and there are those exceptions. If, however, you're living in a government-run care home for your last decade or so, that is an absolutely miserable existence. There is no way to "do better" for those people to the point of giving them a fulfilling life. They are literally waiting to die. All their milestones have come and gone. Anything they have to offer is irrelevant and unneeded.

The best we could do is give them an off ramp. "Do better" for them. Yeah, how do you do better for an 85 year old with dementia? And how much money and human resources do you throw at that for absolutely no pay off and when it isn't even benefiting anything or anyone? And dragging somebody's life out for an extra 10 years plus is cruel to them and their family who is expected to visit them and pay for them. It's stressful and takes a lot of time and energy family members may not have to spare. And it can go on for years and years.
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