American Politics 3.0 - Back to Brunch

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by OldDutch

Russia invaded Ukraine, and China running drills over Taiwan. What a bright, safe new “competitive” future we are walking into.

Yeah and the US dominated era has just been rainbows and acoustic guitar jam sessions throughout.

There is a chance that prosperity, especially in Central America and the Middle East could have looked very different today.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

The poverty to be seen in parts of India is intense. Their GDP per capita in current USD is just over $2,000 and is still only $7,000 in international current dollars. Compare that to America's $70,000. They have 30% of the population (420 million people) living on less than $3/day, and that's on the international standard that factors in purchasing power. How many more children would have access to healthcare, education and food security if they could reach even a quarter of US GDP per capita?

There are more important things than ideology, and if they can climb the ladder and do so peacefully it should be celebrated and supported. It's not like they don't already have nukes, and Modi, and the issues with Pakistan anyways.

None of this will be peaceful, the rise of India will be a bloody nuclear exchange between India, Pakistan, China and Iran and millions will die

[devo22]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Pretty sure she said this would be her last term and she would not seek re-election.



Buuuut it's you, so I assume this is purely a joke post, so forget what I just said.

ResAlien has already alluded to this, but Feinstein not being present for votes is a huge problem. Even representatives have started to call for her resignation.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1646261866258223106

and it's correct. Feinstein has had a great career, but her unwillingness to call it a day is an issue now that she seemingly can't fulfill her duties anymore. Heck, she first seemed unwilling to not run again next year too. Those who see sexism in the calls for her resignation (like Pelosi) are completely missing the boat.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Kay, thanks. I honestly didn't know that was going on.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

The poverty to be seen in parts of India is intense. Their GDP per capita in current USD is just over $2,000 and is still only $7,000 in international current dollars. Compare that to America's $70,000. They have 30% of the population (420 million people) living on less than $3/day, and that's on the international standard that factors in purchasing power. How many more children would have access to healthcare, education and food security if they could reach even a quarter of US GDP per capita?

There are more important things than ideology, and if they can climb the ladder and do so peacefully it should be celebrated and supported. It's not like they don't already have nukes, and Modi, and the issues with Pakistan anyways.

Won't Modi end up suppressing a bunch of the country anyways? Isn't he known to be much more supporting of the Hindu population vs the 200 million Muslims in the country.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

None of this will be peaceful, the rise of India will be a bloody nuclear exchange between India, Pakistan, China and Iran and millions will die

We should always assume that Nuclear powered countries aren't going to nuke each other. Mutually assured destruction is a powerful deterrent. All those countries are nuclear powers except for Iran (for now).

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

We should always assume that Nuclear powered countries aren't going to nuke each other. Mutually assured destruction is a powerful deterrent. All those countries are nuclear powers except for Iran (for now).

countries ruled by religious fundamentalists are not constrained by any of this

[OldDutch]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

Yeah and the US dominated era has just been rainbows and acoustic guitar jam sessions throughout.

There is a chance that prosperity, especially in Central America and the Middle East could have looked very different today.

Love flippant remarks to facts.

Here’s the simple truth. The US has been fantastic for Canada. It shares our general principles.

Russia and China do not, and I am doubtful on balance for Canadians this world you speak of is better.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Won't Modi end up suppressing a bunch of the country anyways? Isn't he known to be much more supporting of the Hindu population vs the 200 million Muslims in the country.

I don't like the treatment of Muslim populations under Modi, but I also don't like that there are roughly 240 million people there suffering from malnutrition. Political leaders come and go, but economic growth bringing quality infrastructure, education, health services, and food security would be a real, tangible, and undeniably good thing.

The world needs to keep developing for the majority of the world's population to have reliable access to these fundamentals of quality of life, and with how the world's population is distributed, economic growth in these areas will create new economic superpowers and shift the balance of power away from US dominance.

It's not an anti-US thing, it's just a matter of other countries wanting to climb the ladder. It will also be a good thing to have the brilliance and creativity of huge numbers of people unlocked in the ways that become possible with economic development, and their contributions will no doubt give back to the world as well.

Modi or no Modi, there are other important things.

Where it does relate to the US is in its foreign policy and how it deals with all of this and how it hopefully transitions peacefully into being one major power among a few over the course of coming decades. Democracy vs. Autocracy I don't think is a persuasive narrative for a new model of the world, and I don't think we really see any other cohesive or persuasive vision for a model of the world post-US supremacy coming out of America yet. It's a big period of global change, and who knows what American foreign policy is going to be two years from now let alone ten years from now.

[PeteMoss]

I think you're over confident its going to end anytime soon. China is already facing a population bubble and starting to face challenges.

And the only reason they are in a position to get where they are is because the US opened up their economy to them in the 70s. So its kind of debatable to claim the US is bad when they are the reason for China being in the position they are now.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

countries ruled by religious fundamentalists are not constrained by any of this

Anyone who's pushed themselves far enough up the food chain to gain power - even religious fundamentalists - don't want to have their country blown off the map.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by OldDutch

Love flippant remarks to facts.

Here’s the simple truth. The US has been fantastic for Canada. It shares our general principles.

Russia and China do not, and I am doubtful on balance for Canadians this world you speak of is better.

You're suggesting a world in which Russia is a superpower on the level of the US? I just don't see it.

I think it's also a little naive to assume a world where there is a more even balance of power is worse. What if the US had real fear of pissing of China, and didn't get up to their decades of foreign misdeeds and millions of dead bodies and massive amounts of human suffering as a result? Do you really think you can definitively say that this scenario would have China murdering even more foreigners, and disrupting the progression of even more foreign countries?

If they were both afraid of pissing each other off, maybe the rest of the planet would have been left alone a bit more.

And frankly, I don't give a crap what's good for Canada if it's at the expense of others. Why are the lives here worth more than people across some imaginary line on a map?

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

I think you're over confident its going to end anytime soon. China is already facing a population bubble and starting to face challenges.

And the only reason they are in a position to get where they are is because the US opened up their economy to them in the 70s. So its kind of debatable to claim the US is bad when they are the reason for China being in the position they are now.

You're understating it. This is straight up propaganda.

Also using India as a wedge to try and display concern for the poor, while in the same paragraph hand waiving away the treatment of non-hindu religions by the Prime Minister within India over the last few years is absolutely comical.
You can't separate the issues of massive economic segregation from religion in India.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/396887/...pulations.aspx
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ow/1858719.cms

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

I think you're over confident its going to end anytime soon. China is already facing a population bubble and starting to face challenges.

And the only reason they are in a position to get where they are is because the US opened up their economy to them in the 70s. So its kind of debatable to claim the US is bad when they are the reason for China being in the position they are now.

It's not about the US being bad. The US has an important role to play in global leadership, but they also have some frightening people in their political leadership class and a politically divided country that's pretty ignorant about the rest of the world and not used to being anything but the big kid on the block. They could play a bad part in global development by actively working to constrain the economic growth of emerging competitors (as it looks like they doing with restricting Chinese access to chip tech) and thereby restraining the development of their populations. There are plenty of conservative voices in the US who are essentially pushing for more active conflict and are open about not seeing any other country allowed to arise as a competitor. Look at a guy like Pompeo who might be putting his hat in the ring as a Republican candidate and who basically boasts about planning a coup in Venezuela and seems to want war with China.

Anyways, the OECD projects growth of around 5% for China over the next two years and Indian growth of 5% this year with almost 8% next year. The US is forecast for 1.5% and 0.9% over the next two years, and they've already slipped to being the second biggest economy. How things play out 10-20 years from now, we just have to wait and see, and yes, I will be hoping to see developing and emerging economies continue to catch up to the US in economic output and quality of life.

I'll also just add that while globalization led by American companies, by Bretton Woods institutions, and by development of global financial markets has obviously been an essential part of the development of countries like China and India, saying that the US is the reason for their development is pretty unfairly disregarding the role those countries and their people play in it all. It's not like they didn't seize the opportunities, develop their own plans and policies, and do all the work necessary to build up as much as they have. Their development is also due to the intelligence and exertion of their own people and leaders. There's an absolute tonne of very smart and very hard working people who have contributed to that and who continue to.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

You're understating it. This is straight up propaganda.

Also using India as a wedge to try and display concern for the poor, while in the same paragraph hand waiving away the treatment of non-hindu religions by the Prime Minister within India over the last few years is absolutely comical.
You can't separate the issues of massive economic segregation from religion in India.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/396887/...pulations.aspx
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ow/1858719.cms

That's a pretty rude thing to say.

I do care about the wellbeing of people in India. I have Muslim, Hindu, and Jain friends in and from India who are people that I love. I've seen the consequences of poverty and inequality in India firsthand, and it's utterly heartbreaking. To me, a person's nationality doesn't determine their value or their right to a good quality of life. I don't know what the solution to the challenges of religious differences in India is, and I don't see why that would be up to me, but the solution to hundreds of millions suffering from the awful consequences of poverty is relatively pretty clear.

There is no doubt the world will be a better place if we can have countries engage in more peaceful co-development that sees the Global South catching up to the Global North. It would be fantastic to see American leadership embracing this approach and accepting a multipolar reality. We really need enlightened American leadership. Instead, the country is mired in dealing with idiots like MJT, cynics like DeSantis and Trump, fights over banning books, gendered bathrooms and rollback of abortion rights. Even President Biden, who is among the more reasonable politicians, faces pressure from both the left and right, which seems to be pushing towards further conflict.

I'll note it's also interesting that you bypassed another post that seemed to justify violence as long as it's good for Canadians, yet you chose to criticize my call for recognizing the importance of lifting people out of poverty. That speaks volumes.

[TherapyforGlencross]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

You're suggesting a world in which Russia is a superpower on the level of the US? I just don't see it.

I think it's also a little naive to assume a world where there is a more even balance of power is worse. What if the US had real fear of pissing of China, and didn't get up to their decades of foreign misdeeds and millions of dead bodies and massive amounts of human suffering as a result? Do you really think you can definitively say that this scenario would have China murdering even more foreigners, and disrupting the progression of even more foreign countries?

If they were both afraid of pissing each other off, maybe the rest of the planet would have been left alone a bit more.

And frankly, I don't give a crap what's good for Canada if it's at the expense of others. Why are the lives here worth more than people across some imaginary line on a map?

Not nitpicking your post and maybe I’m selfish but hey at least I’m admitting it lol. To be honest, if Canada were poorer and economically times were tougher here meanwhile people from across the world who I will never meet or interact with are doing better, I can’t say I’d be too happy. I like my way of living, I’d like to keep it as such

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by TherapyforGlencross

Not nitpicking your post and maybe I’m selfish but hey at least I’m admitting it lol. To be honest, if Canada were poorer and economically times were tougher here meanwhile people from across the world who I will never meet or interact with are doing better, I can’t say I’d be too happy. I like my way of living, I’d like to keep it as such

And this is why we’re all screwed. We all have more than we could ever need to be happy…. but I’ll be damned if I give up my third TV so some kid across the world doesn’t starve to death… because I’ve never met her.

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

You're suggesting a world in which Russia is a superpower on the level of the US? I just don't see it.

I think it's also a little naive to assume a world where there is a more even balance of power is worse. What if the US had real fear of pissing of China, and didn't get up to their decades of foreign misdeeds and millions of dead bodies and massive amounts of human suffering as a result? Do you really think you can definitively say that this scenario would have China murdering even more foreigners, and disrupting the progression of even more foreign countries?

If they were both afraid of pissing each other off, maybe the rest of the planet would have been left alone a bit more.

And frankly, I don't give a crap what's good for Canada if it's at the expense of others. Why are the lives here worth more than people across some imaginary line on a map?

If a multipolar world does indeed happen, it will likely lead to a slight adjustment and correction for us in the west who have lived very well at the expense of the majority of the world, where the result will be a better situation in that world vs. how they live today and a small relative adjustment for us. Some of us are okay with that. Others, clearly are not.

[afc wimbledon]

Being British and growing up in the 60's and 70's the prospect of poverty doesn't worry me so much as the certainty that it presages the end of democracy

[Cali Panthers Fan]

What we have to understand is that we are no longer individual nations or groups of people, but a global collective of humanity. What's good for people in other parts of the world is good for us. The sooner we all realize that, the better everything will be.