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Old 02-18-2020, 10:08 AM   #81
GioforPM
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Originally Posted by Flash Walken View Post
I don't think treliving has any autonomy at all.

How could one possibly believe that after how the last season and a half have gone?
Because Iíve overheard Edwards speaking with a previous GM on the phone and he was hands off (as long as the overall budget was not impacted)?

Maybe heís completely changed his tune. But thatís the evidence i have.
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Old 02-18-2020, 10:09 AM   #82
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Do you think King is still a road block or has he been effectively sidelined. I think Edwards has his fingers in the pie and nixed that Zucker deal.
I don't think Ken is working off of his own script either.
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Old 02-18-2020, 10:18 AM   #83
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I hate this argument. Nobody thinks that he is. He just isn't teaching/motivating them not to.
I think that as fans we often overestimate the impact of coaching in the NHL. If these players are not motivating themselves to continually improve and be the best at their craft, then thatís a major problem. Just like in any other professional career, itís not your bossís job to motivate you.
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Old 02-18-2020, 10:20 AM   #84
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I think that as fans we often overestimate the impact of coaching in the NHL. If these players are not motivating themselves to continually improve and be the best at their craft, then thatís a major problem. Just like in any other professional career, itís not your bossís job to motivate you.
Where I work that is definitely part of their job.

They shouldn't be behind me cheering me on at every opportunity but they need to keep me focused, on point and understanding what the end goal always is so I am never at a loss or confused.
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Old 02-18-2020, 10:22 AM   #85
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Yeah, coaches do more than just motivate.

They also blend the lines and try to perfectly time the calling of timeouts
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Old 02-18-2020, 10:30 AM   #86
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The question isn't whether ownership is involved in decisions that affect real money, but it's whether they are more or less involved than other clubs.

Is there any doubt that Treliving has an operating budget every year and that moves that exceed those parameters need approval? I would think most clubs operate that way.

Take last year's Zucker trade. Zucker's 2019/20 cap hit is $5.5 million but his actual salary is $6.25 million. Frolik's cap hit is $4.3 million but his actual salary is $3 million.

That's a net increase of $2 million cash over their respective cap hits. Assuming the budget roughly corresponds to the cap, that's likely an increase in actual spending than what was projected.

No one should be surprised, least of all Treliving, that such a move would require an OK from ownership.
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Old 02-18-2020, 03:49 PM   #87
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Geoff Ward Edit - website was wrong
https://www.hockey-reference.com/coaches/wardge99c.html

I put in his age as GP. Doh.

But his winning percentage is actually higher than .606
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Old 02-18-2020, 03:57 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Zarley View Post
I think that as fans we often overestimate the impact of coaching in the NHL. If these players are not motivating themselves to continually improve and be the best at their craft, then thatís a major problem. Just like in any other professional career, itís not your bossís job to motivate you.
Hmm....

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Scholars at the Harris School of Public Policy analyzed hundreds of seasons of data, including wins and losses and sports scores and statistics, and estimated that coaches account for 20 percent to 30 percent of the variation in team outcomes.
https://news.uchicago.edu/story/how-...success-sports
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Old 02-18-2020, 04:03 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Flashpoint View Post
Geoff Ward

.606 winning percentage
33-19-12

Thatís 57 games. That seems like a pretty good sample size, no?
Didn't he take over on November 27th?

I got 20-12-2 with a +6 goal differential (113-107)

I believe that's a .620 points percentage?
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Old 02-18-2020, 04:19 PM   #90
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Geoff Ward

.606 winning percentage
33-19-12

That’s 57 games. That seems like a pretty good sample size, no?
It should help when interviewing for his next NHL job. No guarantee that the new head coach hired in the offseason will want to keep him on his staff if they have their own guys in mind although I'm sure Treliving would prefer that.
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Old 02-18-2020, 05:06 PM   #91
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Didn't he take over on November 27th?

I got 20-12-2 with a +6 goal differential (113-107)

I believe that's a .620 points percentage?
They donít count the one game where Peters was still officially coach. But he won it.

BTW, a lot of people are discounting the first streak as a post coach bump. However, I think if you look at the stats on that, itís a myth.
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Old 02-18-2020, 05:26 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Strange Brew View Post
The question isn't whether ownership is involved in decisions that affect real money, but it's whether they are more or less involved than other clubs.

Is there any doubt that Treliving has an operating budget every year and that moves that exceed those parameters need approval? I would think most clubs operate that way.

Take last year's Zucker trade. Zucker's 2019/20 cap hit is $5.5 million but his actual salary is $6.25 million. Frolik's cap hit is $4.3 million but his actual salary is $3 million.

That's a net increase of $2 million cash over their respective cap hits. Assuming the budget roughly corresponds to the cap, that's likely an increase in actual spending than what was projected.

No one should be surprised, least of all Treliving, that such a move would require an OK from ownership.

Sweet example, your math doesn't even work. Zucker's salary is $725k ABOVE his cap hit and Frolik's is $1.3 million BELOW, so the Flames would have actually saved real money vs. cap hit.
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Old 02-18-2020, 06:21 PM   #93
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Sweet example, your math doesn't even work. Zucker's salary is $725k ABOVE his cap hit and Frolik's is $1.3 million BELOW, so the Flames would have actually saved real money vs. cap hit.
What?
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Old 02-18-2020, 07:13 PM   #94
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Sweet example, your math doesn't even work. Zucker's salary is $725k ABOVE his cap hit and Frolik's is $1.3 million BELOW, so the Flames would have actually saved real money vs. cap hit.
Ummm, nope. The Flames would have lost real dollars, because they pay more than the cap hit and lose a player making less. And theyíd have lost cap space too but thatís irrelevant to this discussion.
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Old 02-18-2020, 07:14 PM   #95
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It should help when interviewing for his next NHL job. No guarantee that the new head coach hired in the offseason will want to keep him on his staff if they have their own guys in mind although I'm sure Treliving would prefer that.
Why do you think Treliving would prefer Ward to stay with a new HC? Because of the Gelinas/Huska precedent?
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Old 02-18-2020, 07:20 PM   #96
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Why do you think Treliving would prefer Ward to stay with a new HC? Because of the Gelinas/Huska precedent?
Because he likes Ward obviously and I imagine he probably signed for three seasons. I have to imagine they would rather not fire coaches that they like under contract to hire new ones if they can.
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Old 02-18-2020, 07:27 PM   #97
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Because he likes Ward obviously and I imagine he probably signed for three seasons. I have to imagine they would rather not fire coaches that they like under contract to hire new ones if they can.
Why does he like Ward ďobviouslyĒ? He didnít hire him as HC once already, and hired him as AC when Peters wanted it. I doubt he signed an AC for 3 seasons either - they are typically year to year. Even so, heíd only have one season left.
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Old 02-19-2020, 04:06 PM   #98
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What?
I imagine that his point was about the Flames getting more value out of Zucker paid more real dollars than his caphit versus Frolik who impacted the cap more than the actual dollars paid.

Not that addresses the need for the ownership to be involved when actual operating dollars changes.


Treliving has not been afraid to make big meaningful additions as long as the high cost meant a long term addition (Hamilton, Hamonic, Lindholm/Hanifin)

I don't see the guy making a big swing for a UFA and another 'hockey deal' seems difficult unless they're willing to move from a high value piece like Hanifin so soon. Nobody else really has that kind of value.

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Old 02-19-2020, 04:19 PM   #99
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I don't think treliving has any autonomy at all.

How could one possibly believe that after how the last season and a half have gone?
What am I missing (seriously)? As mentioned I'm sure he doesn't have full autonomy, I'm guessing most GMs don't have complete free reign.

But what has happened in the last season and a half that would make us believe he's being hindered by ownership more so than would be normal for any GM?
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Old 02-19-2020, 04:29 PM   #100
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What?
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Ummm, nope. The Flames would have lost real dollars, because they pay more than the cap hit and lose a player making less. And they’d have lost cap space too but that’s irrelevant to this discussion.
He was having his own argument about real money vs. cap hit rather than just real money, and for some reason decided to yell at strange brew instead of just mumbling to himself in the corner.
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