2019/2020 Trade Speculation and Rumors 2.0

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by browntrout

You know what else is silly the flames playoff record. How did having an elite winger (Iginla) with medicore centres work out for this organization in the last 25 years?

I agree with you that he is the most valuable flame currently, but you have to give to get something of a tangible value. Nobody is giving us the moon for Gaudreau or Monahan, it simply is not happening.

For all the bashing we give to the Oilers, you know what I like their chances going deep in the playoffs with those two studs at centre. It is almost impossible to trade for really good first line centres, you pretty much have to take your chances and draft one.

Oilers will always always always suck. They couldn't even make the playoffs with those 2 studs. At least we made it. And will again. And again, and again. Since the salary cap came into play, the worst team by a country mile has been the Oilers, the leagie can't even save them. No one can.

[klikitiklik]

I think we are all in for a big disappointment when at the end of all this we will have the same team plus a couple of small under $1 million additions. I think Mr "smartest man in the room" is not going to do sweet F all and is happy with the status quo.

Quine and Zarnik will be full timers. He will also re-sign Stone.

I hope I am completely wrong, but GMBT is past his due date as a Flames GM. I can see he's trying but after so many bad coaches and vanilla player decisions, I'm surprised he still has a job.

Just my opinion. Don't hate.

Forgot to add "Welcome to the Flames Garrett Sparks"

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by Crown Royal

I do like the idea of trying Lindholm at C, combined with running 11 forwards.

Gaudreau - Monahan - Bennett
Tkachuk - Lindholm - Mangiapane
Dube - Backlund - Ryan
Rieder - Jankowski

Giordano - *Brodie Replacement*
Hanifin - Andersson
Valimaki - Mackey
Kylington

Obviously guys can move up/down the line-ups and Jankowski may not return and there will probably be trades, will be UFA signings, but you get the gist.

I like the concept of 11 forwards and 7 d.

What about filling the last defensive spot with a guy like Mark Borowiecki?
Should be an inexpensive signing and provide some grit from the back end.

Not an earth shattering move, but it is nice to have some truculence (as Burke would say).

[browntrout]

Originally Posted by klikitiklik

I think we are all in for a big disappointment when at the end of all this we will have the same team plus a couple of small under $1 million additions. I think Mr "smartest man in the room" is not going to do sweet F all and is happy with the status quo.

Quine and Zarnik will be full timers. He will also re-sign Stone.

I hope I am completely wrong, but GMBT is past his due date as a Flames GM. I can see he's trying but after so many bad coaches and vanilla player decisions, I'm surprised he still has a job.

Just my opinion. Don't hate.

I agree with you, time for a big shake up, this forward group has shown us that they can't get it done in the playoffs. I would rather make a big trade and maybe it does not work out, but at least management tried something. Worst case scenario a big shake up keeps the team as a bubble playoff team or a team with a chance to draft first overall if they bust.

[djsFlames]

A scorched earth blow up is wishful thinking.

Best we can hope for is a retool. That means moving a significant player for a different significant player to give them a new look on the core, or trading a guy like gaudreau for younger pieces that can step in over the next couple seasons.

It absolutely needs to happen but does treliving follow through on something that actually shakes the roster up in a meaningful way or does he chicken out and play it safe, banking on rebounds from the top two guys? You have to think they've had enough chances to show something in the big games and simply have not come through as a duo/pair. To stick with this group as it is yet again would stubborn. They need a change or some sort of upgrade.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by browntrout

You know what else is silly the flames playoff record. How did having an elite winger (Iginla) with medicore centres work out for this organization in the last 25 years?

I agree with you that he is the most valuable flame currently, but you have to give to get something of a tangible value. Nobody is giving us the moon for Gaudreau or Monahan, it simply is not happening.

For all the bashing we give to the Oilers, you know what I like their chances going deep in the playoffs with those two studs at centre. It is almost impossible to trade for really good first line centres, you pretty much have to take your chances and draft one.

Okay, let’s look at it from the other side.

Why would the Senators trade two cost controlled assets for a player they need to qualify at 10M in two years? Note: Eugene Melnyk is still the owner of the Senators. The very asset you covet, a potential 1C, is there for the taking for them.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Crown Royal

I never said he was a failure, said he was SEEN as a failure. There was a ton of negative things said about RoR before he excelled with the Blues and all those narratives changed.

And I agree Lindholm does have the tools to play C, but you don't just immediately make him your #1C in his first full season as a center. Throwing him in the deep end without swimming lessons just isn't a good idea.

You should re-examine your post because there was no SEEN as a playoff failure, there was only “ROR was a playoff failure” and I don’t even know who you’re talking about, who saw or said he was a playoff failure exactly?

We’re just going to have to agree to disagree as is this conversation is going no where. I’m not going to change your mind and you’re not going to change mine.


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[browntrout]

Originally Posted by Ped

Still don't think the Sens would, for financial reasons more than anything else. Whoever they draft is cheap for 3 years. Tkachuk is not. With the flat cap, Ottawa is going to have all sorts of chances to meet the floor without spending a lot of real dollars.

Maybe they would not do this deal, but I would think they would very seriously consider it. First of all your team is better right away, he might be enough to get them in the playoffs. He is young, so marketable with his brother being there. If it was for the 3rd overall I can't see them not turning that deal down. But from a Calgary perspective they would want more compensation, hence why you add the 5th overall. Throw in Calgary first round pick and maybe that a good trade for both teams. If you can replace Tkachuk production via a UFA signing, IMO you have to look hard at a trade with Ottawa

Probably not going to happen, but anyone can be an armchair GM these days

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

You should re-examine your post because there was no SEEN as a playoff failure, there was only “ROR was a playoff failure” and I don’t even know who you’re talking about, who saw or said he was a playoff failure exactly?

We’re just going to have to agree to disagree as is this conversation is going no where. I’m not going to change your mind and you’re not going to change mine.


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I don't really remember this sentiment about ROR popping up very much until after he won. Perhaps it was rumbled for the first few months of the season with the Blues when they were hot garbage...it wasn't a totally unreasonable take at the time (that losing followed ROR around) - even though the Blues had narrowly missed the playoffs the year before, their implosion correlated with ROR's arrival.

My sense is that a few hot takes in fall 2018 have been falsely transformed into a long-standing narrative.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

An NHL centre is expected to do have 6 or 7 elements to his game: score goals, take face-offs, distribute the puck, forecheck, backcheck, quickly assess dangers without the puck, track back deep to give the defence an outlet pass, gain the zone with possession.

Monahan does one of those very well, a couple decently, and the rest poorly.

Since it's mostly the things that don't show up on the stat sheet that Monahan does poorly, it's difficult for fans to talk about the big deficiencies in his play. But I'm confident that the Flames braintrust are aware of them. They know how severe of a handicap it is when opposing coaches lick their chops at line-matching against the Flames, knowing what a matchup advantage they have whenever the Flames top line is on the ice.

Yep, I pretty much see it the same way. The scary thing is, he’s an elite goal scorer especially in tight spaces, but without Gaudreau creating plays and distributing, will Monahan put up the same goal totals? I have extreme doubts. To me, it’ll look like the playoffs all over again where he struggled to produce scoring chances.

To be fair though, it was evident that he was trying harder to be more physical this season. So that’s something he has added to his repertoire. But is that enough? I don’t think so. His skating is still the weakest aspect of his game which holds him back from being a better forechecker and a better 2 way player. The way Ward wants them to play is a heavy forecheck and then hard backcheck. But with Monahan’s boots, I find he struggles to keep up that pace for 82 games + playoffs.


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[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by browntrout

Maybe they would not do this deal, but I would think they would very seriously consider it. First of all your team is better right away, he might be enough to get them in the playoffs. He is young, so marketable with his brother being there. If it was for the 3rd overall I can't see them not turning that deal down. But from a Calgary perspective they would want more compensation, hence why you add the 5th overall. Throw in Calgary first round pick and maybe that a good trade for both teams. If you can replace Tkachuk production via a UFA signing, IMO you have to look hard at a trade with Ottawa

Probably not going to happen, but anyone can be an armchair GM these days

Cheap owner Melnyk would have a heart attack paying Tkachuk $7 million for the next 2. His head would probably explode just thinking about Tkachuks next contract after that.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

I don't really remember this sentiment about ROR popping up very much until after he won. Perhaps it was rumbled for the first few months of the season with the Blues when they were hot garbage...it wasn't a totally unreasonable take at the time (that losing followed ROR around) - even though the Blues had narrowly missed the playoffs the year before, their implosion correlated with ROR's arrival.

My sense is that a few hot takes in fall 2018 have been falsely transformed into a long-standing narrative.

All I remember about O’Reilly was the quote he had at the end of the season about how he had lost some zest for the game with all the losing he’s seen. That’s about it. Maybe he’s not the type of player that can carry a team to the playoffs as the main piece, but he’s definitely a guy that can help you get through the playoffs as he has proved. His rough and tough, hard to play against style is perfectly suited for the playoffs.


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[MrMike]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

Cheap owner Melnyk would have a heart attack paying Tkachuk $7 million for the next 2. His head would probably explode just thinking about Tkachuks next contract after that.

I think the way his contract is structured it’s 7 this year and 9 next year. No way Melnyk will pay that.

[Teroy]

Unless we make a major trade, we're not going to change the personality of the team that currently revolves around Gaudreau. Unless he is moved, the attitude/effort will not change. It will remain a team that relies on him. Sorry, but I think it's time to move beyond him. If we can not trade him for an impact player, I would go with the earlier suggestion that we trade him for prospects/picks and use the 6.5 million to sign either a centre or RW. I would not concentrate on getting a defenceman. It's time to utilize the talent we have on the farm. I would also just go with Talbot/Rittich. I don't blame the goaltenders for our poor showings. Yes, a goaltender can steal a round for you but that is not what you should be aiming for. It's up to the team to limit the number of chances, thus taking some of the load of the goalies. In this regard, we have been a total failure. We're not going to win the cup next year so let's be a little patient and build for 2021-2022.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by klikitiklik

I think we are all in for a big disappointment when at the end of all this we will have the same team plus a couple of small under $1 million additions. I think Mr "smartest man in the room" is not going to do sweet F all and is happy with the status quo.

Quine and Zarnik will be full timers. He will also re-sign Stone.

I hope I am completely wrong, but GMBT is past his due date as a Flames GM. I can see he's trying but after so many bad coaches and vanilla player decisions, I'm surprised he still has a job.

Just my opinion. Don't hate.

Forgot to add "Welcome to the Flames Garrett Sparks"

I too am eager to see a big changes, but I don't understand the pessimism given that Treliving in his tenure has been among the more consistently aggressive GMs in the League. Where does this narrative about him twiddling his thumbs and supposedly "happy with the status quo" stem from? I see a GM who has been rather quick to make big changes, and, if anything, less patient to see things take their course.

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[klikitiklik]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I too am eager to see a big changes, but I don't understand the pessimism given that Treliving in his tenure has been among the more consistently aggressive GMs in the League. Where does this narrative about him twiddling his thumbs and supposedly "happy with the status quo" stem from? I see a GM who has been rather quick to make big changes, and, if anything, less patient to see things take their course.

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I find that it stems from the results we've had. I know he's trying but so far his moves have not resulted in playoff success. I agree I'm being pessimistic, but as a Flames fan who as a little kid attended the Flames first game in the Corral, I've been on the mediocracy go round for too long. I guess as a fan I'm frustrated and tired of the "process". NO #1 Goalie. Dump and chase hockey from a middling coach. Mark my words the Flames will be instituting the Trap next year. Stories like missing out on some valuable pieces because he couldn't get permission from King in time. If he has been freed of this leash,then he certainly has not done enough with his autonomy.

My own fault for being too emotionally invested in the team. They represent me and our City and I just want them to win. It's a tough position he is in but I believe he is out of his element hockey wise.

Again just my opinion and I don't expect anyone to agree.

[Calgary4LIfe]

With respect to Tkachuk, I don't think anyone has to worry that the Flames will be 'building around a winger again'.



I think if any team in the NHL is trying to build around a certain player or two, they will not get any sustained success. You don't build around a player. You try to accumulate as many good players as possible that fit the way your team plays.



If the Flames have 3 LWs that are considered the best players on the team, then so be it. You just have to find a way to build the rest of your well. Look at the '04 Flames - best player was Iginla, with Kipper and Regehr being high quality pieces as well (understatement here). It was HOW Darryl built that team though. He found players that fit his system perfectly. They weren't a powerhouse by any stretch of the imagination, but that team still went through every single division winner that year en route to Game 7 (though they even 'won' the game 6 game!). It wasn't 'lightning in a bottle'. It wasn't 'get in and anything can happen'. Sutter just assembled a bunch of guys that could skate and hit and had some skill and were willing to do whatever it takes, and the system and adjustments he made throughout was nearly perfect.


That's why I say "you can win with the existing core". ROR was nothing short of a 'loser'. No revisionist history needed here. Remember how Giguere was pissed off at his team years ago for already 'planning their off-season trips' between periods? ROR was there. Him crashing into a Timmy's and then taking off. As I made mention of a previous post, there was probably nobody in the hockey world that felt that ROR was a winner, or even a better centre than Monahan. Defensively yes, but everyone thought that it would be an outrageous trade if it was Monahan for ROR straight up.



Now suddenly ROR is a winner, a franchise C, and he shoots fireballs out of his arse if any opposing player dekes by him.



Gaudrau and Monahan and everyone else will always be seen as 'guys you can't win with' until they do - or until they far.


Just build the best team you can with them. If you can find something better out there, something else that makes more sense, the trade them. Nobody on this roster should be 'untradeable'. My opinion is that this off-season, it might just be easier to add to the existing core then make a big change to it, and if that is the case, I won't feel like Treliving 'didn't do enough'.



Everyone has to improve a bit over last season. Treliving has to find replacement D for next season. He has to figure out goaltending. Every single player has to be a bit better - which for a young team, isn't a crazy notion. Nobody has to take a giant step - just a small progression. Ward has to be a better coach then what he has shown at times last season - which again, for a first time coach, is also not out of the question (especially given a full training camp and now with the experience he has gained from being a head coach and being very familiar with the players).


So no, I don't think you need to have a #1 franchise elite C to win. Having more 'better players' than the opposing team gives you a big advantage, but the playoffs is also a war of attrition, and coaching adjustments and tactics over a 7 game series is so vastly underrated and underappreciated.


I still believe that this team with these players can go further than what they have shown thus far. I think tweaking the lineup and making some coaching adjustments, plus hopefully adding another core player - can take this team far. I also think that Monahan is a bona-fide #1 centre in this league, and you can win with him and Gaudreau being your 'top line players' - but the rest of your team has to be good as well, and you better have solid coaching.



You 'can't win' with Benn and Seguin. Not anymore. Throw in old-man Pavelski and 'washed-up NHL'er Perry? Not even close, right? You can win with the depth that they have, with a coach who is seemingly making all the right adjustments and a team that is playing as well as they are.


Flames aren't far away in my opinion. They just haven't figured out exactly how to win yet.

[GioforPM]

Treliving doesn’t play “smartest man in the room”. That is where you go way outside the box because you believe you know better than the conventional wisdom (eg. Jankowski).

If anything, Treliving overpursues conventional wisdom: Flames need a big rugged winger: Brouwer. Flames need a defensive RHD to play with Brodie on the left: Hamonic. Flames need a scorer to play top line: Neal.

“Smartest guy in the room” types are also married to their decisions, which Treliving ain’t: Brouwer buyout, Neal trade.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by klikitiklik

I find that it stems from the results we've had. I know he's trying but so far his moves have not resulted in playoff success. I agree I'm being pessimistic, but as a Flames fan who as a little kid attended the Flames first game in the Corral, I've been on the mediocracy go round for too long. I guess as a fan I'm frustrated and tired of the "process". NO #1 Goalie. Dump and chase hockey from a middling coach. Mark my words the Flames will be instituting the Trap next year. Stories like missing out on some valuable pieces because he couldn't get permission from King in time. If he has been freed of this leash,then he certainly has not done enough with his autonomy.

So, I think these are different complaints. In your original post you blamed the GM for his lack of activity and contentment with the status quo. And this is what I take issue with: here you have identified things that are arguably legitimate problems. So, argue from there—don't invent an alternative narrative that does not accurately reflect this situation and the issues as a shorthand by which to vent your frustration.

My own fault for being too emotionally invested in the team. They represent me and our City and I just want them to win. It's a tough position he is in but I believe he is out of his element hockey wise.

I certainly understand civic pride and the emotional investment of fans. But I have come to learn more recently that confusing such things with our own identities can be terribly unhealthy, and result in a lot of needless anxiety and depression. Hockey is supposed to be fun. If you are no longer having fun, then maybe you need a change? A change that you can control, and not one that depends on what the GM or the team might do?

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[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

And I'd say you're the delusional one if you think both Gaudreau and Monahan will both be back next season. How does a $5.35M number 3 center make sense for this team with a flat cap anyway? You're also suggesting Treliving go into next season with 3 brand new lines that have never been seen before and somehow expecting it'll all work because that's where they're ideally slotted. This isn't a video game.

I am in for a sig bet on that one, if you are.