de Grood to be transferred to hospital for assessment

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

I'm educated enough to know who should be walking our streets and who shouldn't, I fully understand de Grood was psychotic when he stabbed those kids, lots of mass murderers have a psychotic event before they kill.

Please show me another country on earth that would let someone who stabbed 5 people to death out after 5 years in a hospital or jail...good luck with the search.

Some examples of just how bad our so-called justice system is:

Yes, you are completely uneducated on the issue. I don't mean that as an insult, just a fact based on everything you've posted about mental illness.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

I'm educated enough to know who should be walking our streets and who shouldn't, I fully understand de Grood was psychotic when he stabbed those kids, lots of mass murderers have a psychotic event before they kill.

Please show me another country on earth that would let someone who stabbed 5 people to death out after 5 years in a hospital or jail...good luck with the search.

Some examples of just how bad our so-called justice system is:

just a partial list of serial child sex offenders set free by the Canadian justice system

Here is just a partial list of the brutal murderers that Canada has set free

My mind is clear on this and can't be changed but I will kneel to the extreme left and leave this thread for good, I hope no one here has to experience our soft justice system first hand

It would be one thing if you were genuinely approaching this matter from the perspective of preventing a danger to the public from being on the streets. There are most certainly people suffering from mental health issues so severe and dangerous, that they should never be allowed on the streets without supervision, medicated or not. Even if you were questioning De Grood's mental state and whether he was genuinely incapable of appreciated his actions, your argument would be a lot more sound.

However, you seem to be lumping those suffering from severe mental illness in with culpable murderers, with no regard to the issues of mental health whatsoever. I also hate to break it to you, but culpability is a longstanding concept of our, and any remotely democratic, justice system. This isn't some new invention by the "extreme left".

[DownInFlames]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

I'm educated enough to know who should be walking our streets and who shouldn't,

Everything you posted after this just proved you aren't. You don't understand how the justice system works, or why, and you don't understand mental illness.

I hate piling on you every time this subject comes up because you seem like a decent guy otherwise but you just keep sticking to this narrative based entirely on emotion.

You point out a bunch of people who did horrible things and got released, but I don't know if any of them reoffended, except the guy who escaped. Vincent Li certainly hasn't and he's the only NCR on the list. The rest are irrelevant because they were sane when they did their crimes.

You feel the need to categorize those who disagree as "extreme left" but most of us are centrist or conservative. That just proves you're not thinking rationally.

My only personal dealing with the justice system was when I was falsely accused. I'm thankful it's so "soft" because a lot of people aren't as lucky as me and go to jail despite their innocence. I hope you never have to learn that yourself.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

I think that what he doesn't understand is that living in the community isn't akin to freedom with no restrictions. He would still have mandated treatment and based upon his symptoms/history he could still be apprehended if they fail to comply with a community treatment order.

The thought this he should be remanded into custody, for a crime resulting from a horrible disease is one based on the emotion rather than logic. I do feel for the victims families - but our justice system shouldn't be based on emotion alone.

[metallicat]

I think it's time for snuffleupagus to post his/her credentials that make them the expert they claim to be.

[Canadianman]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Did the someone in your life murder people?

This guy was diagnosed with a form of schizophrenia after killing 12 and injuring 70 in the 2012 Colorado theater shootings


His insanity plea saved him from the death penalty but he's never ever getting out of jail, in Canada he would likely be a free man by now because "the drugs make him better"

Our justice system sucks.

--Stephanie Favel should have been in jail not pushing someone on the C-train tracks.

--does anyone know where Vince Li is living or even his name?

If I had time I could find 100's of justice failings

Wouldn't an actual 'justice failing' be if someone found not criminally responsible re-offended?

Vince Li hasn't commited another crime since being properly medicated. Neither has De Grood.

Sounds like the only thing not being properly diagnosed and treated here is your irrational conflation between justice and vengeance.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Canadianman

Wouldn't an actual 'justice failing' be if someone found not criminally responsible re-offended?

Vince Li hasn't commited another crime since being properly medicated. Neither has De Grood.

Sounds like the only thing not being properly diagnosed and treated here is your irrational conflation between justice and vengeance.

It would certainly be interested to see some stats on whether those found not criminally responsible reoffend.

From my personal experience, I know several people on medication, who've gone off it and had further psychotic episodes. That being said the process wasn't as simple as missing a dose or two then losing it. The process took weeks to months. The simple act of being forced to check in with a doctor every few days may have kept them on track.

[Matt Reeeeead]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

I'm educated enough to know who should be walking our streets and who shouldn't, I fully understand de Grood was psychotic when he stabbed those kids, lots of mass murderers have a psychotic event before they kill.



Please show me another country on earth that would let someone who stabbed 5 people to death out after 5 years in a hospital or jail...good luck with the search.



Some examples of just how bad our so-called justice system is:



just a partial list of serial child sex offenders set free by the Canadian justice system



Here is just a partial list of the brutal murderers that Canada has set free



My mind is clear on this and can't be changed but I will kneel to the extreme left and leave this thread for good, I hope no one here has to experience our soft justice system first hand

Ya - it’s probably time to leave the thread when you compare 6 time bank robbers and cold blooded killers to someone suffering from schizophrenia that killed people during a bad episode that could be treated with medicine if identified previously. Last I checked you can’t give bank robbers a couple of pills and then they stop doing bad things. The fact the Canadian justice system let those fellas out is a completely different discussion. The fact that you are trying to use this to make it a left can right wing discussion actually shows how heavily biased and lacking in education in this subject you are.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Royle9]

There's reasons on both sides of this proverbial "moral fence" that make sense.
Its a very fine line, one not worth commenting on myself but our justice system is sure unique when compared to most of the world.

Whether you find it right or wrong that's your own personal opinion however there's definitely some head scratchers over the years.

[OMG!WTF!]

I'm not sure how our justice system is unique compared to the rest of the world. Not being punished for a crime you were incapable of understanding due to mental illness is like a 2000 year old legal standard. Lots of countries offer insanity defense. Lots of countries direct people away from the legal system and towards a mental health system.

[blankall]

I also don't think people realize that referral to a psychiatric facility can be worse than prison. Unless you are classified as a dangerous offender, there are limits on how long the state can hold you in prison. However, with mental health, you can be held indefinitely, until they decide it's safe to let you out. Even once out, the restrictions can be quite severe.

[WhiteTiger]

Looks like some of his freedoms have been revoked

De Grood will remain under full warrant and will remain in Alberta Hospital Edmonton.
*Some of the privileges recommended a year ago have now been revoked.
The decision states: "the Alberta Review Board is not bound by the decisions of a previous panel. It is incumbent for this panel to consider all the evidence presented at the hearing including the reports, letters of support, victim impact statements, and the oral evidence at the hearing before making a considered decision."
The board went on to state, "it is therefore essential that Mr. de Grood remains under the care of the hospital and within the security and structure of the hospital at this time. It is also essential that the re-integration into the community be gradual for a successful re-integration and the Board believes that allowing him to reside in the community at this time is premature."

https://www.facebook.com/NancyHixtCr...22350109257260

[GGG]

It appears that de Grood never exercised the privilege that is being revoked.

A recommendation from de Grood's treatment team to relocate him to an approved group home with around-the-clock supervision in the Edmonton area — a privilege previously approved in 2019 but never utilized by de Grood — was denied by the board. The decision cited the fact non-medical group home staff are not clinically trained to the levels of hospital staff and necessary intervention may prove less timely.
De Grood had been permitted to spend up to three days and two nights in Edmonton away from the Alberta Hospital under the supervision of a responsible adult, but, in its decision that went into effect on Sept. 8, the board reduced the privilege to a maximum of two days and one night away from the approved facility.
The board says de Grood's gradual re-integration into the community was interrupted with the curtailing of privileges in March in response to the COVID-19 pandemic and the subsequent restrictions placed on patients at the hospital.
De Grood has been medication-compliant to address his schizophrenia since his admission but his treatment team does not know how he would react to the transition to a group home.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/beta.ctv...1_5107447.html

[GordonBlue]

The man who was found not criminally responsible in the stabbing deaths of five people at a house party in Brentwood more than nine years ago is seeking more freedoms.

Matthew de Grood has applied to the Alberta Court of Appeal for an absolute discharge.

https://calgary.ctvnews.ca/calgary-m...arge-1.6431344

According to the Government of Canada, that means the court would find him discharged of the offences with no conviction registered.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...ased-1.6869253

Justice Kevin Feehan said de Grood may be low-risk, but the consequences of even one relapse could be significant.

Crown prosecutor Matthew Griener said the board considered a conditional discharge but dismissed it, citing a relapse in schizophrenia symptoms in 2021.

Reading from an expert's report, Feehan said: "A low risk to offend doesn't mean the reoffence would not be severe."

Josh Hunter's father, Barclay, opposed a potential full release.

"The idea that he wouldn't be monitored for the rest of his life seems to defy logic, it doesn't make any sense," said the father.

"We do this every year, at least once. Now, this is the second appeal," she said.

Barclay Hunter said although there are attempts to reintegrate de Grood into society, he hopes the man is not left on his own with an absolute discharge.

"Regardless of what they say, he killed five people. If that doesn't stand on its own as a risk factor, then I don't know what does."


I have to admit, I don't like the idea of him getting an absolute discharge.
If I understand correctly, that would mean he would have no conviction and no conditions to follow, and the discharge disappears from his criminal record after 1 year.

Is it safe for a sick person who killed 5 people and needs to be constantly medicated to be freed with no conditions?
I'm not happy with the idea and hope the effort doesn't succeed.

[81MC]

Bless those family members who go through this #### every year.

You can’t let someone who’s be totally free to go whose incurable, untreated condition has this outcome. That would be insane.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by 81MC

Bless those family members who go through this #### every year.

You can’t let someone who’s be totally free to go whose incurable, untreated condition has this outcome. That would be insane.

His condition is untreated? Not sure that's accurate. He's for sure on anti-psychotics and wouldn't get a chance to proceed with this legal manner if he wasn't on his prescribed medication.

[Sliver]

Why doesn't he kill himself? Seems like the honourable thing to do imo. Am I out to lunch on that? I understand the mental illness component, but he has to be a POS on top of that to not provide a semblance of peace to the victims' families by ending things.

[OutOfTheCube]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Why doesn't he kill himself? Seems like the honourable thing to do imo. Am I out to lunch on that? I understand the mental illness component, but he has to be a POS on top of that to not provide a semblance of peace to the victims' families by ending things.

Uh, this might be a bit too far, even for a Sliver take.

[Firebot]

An absolute discharge is an absolute discharge.

That means no conditions. Medical included.

This is a subject that I have posted on in the past (not this thread) and something I have an extremely strong opinion on.

de Grood did act as a result of his illness, yet an absolute discharge would mean that his medication would become voluntary.

There is no such thing as normal for a schizophrenic, as their view of normal is warped and this includes the act of taking medication. Can a schizophrenic look normal, well yes, you may know people around that are schizophrenic and you may have no idea. There is no cure. Can the condition be treated? To a degree, and again it's totally up to the person. Some people are able to cope with their illness and understand the medication is needed and are able to function in society, but again it's fully up to that person in Canada. If that person refuses to seek help or take medication, that person is free to do so.

Does it mean that the person with the illness will act based on their illness in the future? They could be without medication and not redo it again. Or they could. It's a roll of the dice really but we chose to pretend there is a low risk.

de Grood isn't the only schizophrenic out there. There are many untreated or unknowingly walking around us that may not be dangerous or appear to be dangerous today, but at one moment in time, they may be. And we as a society refuse to take responsibility when we do identify someone who needs help.

Vince Li had an absolute discharge and is now under a new name. He's received help, now he is on his own. There is no condition for him to take any medication. Free will, as our society cherishes.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manit...ba%20community.

"Vince Li got help. Good for him," she said. "Maybe he's feeling better today. My son's still dead. What if he chooses not to take his medications? We know what he's capable of."

And her comment is exactly the problem. What if he chooses not to take his medications. We leave dealing with mental illness down to personal choice and free will. It's a mental illness, yet we leave it to the person to determine if they are capable of making the right choice?

And I know of one person who can easily become the next de Grood or Li at any moment. And I dread it as it's inevitable and we as a society refuse to acknowledge that properly dealing with mental illness clashes with our view of an ideological society. So we do nothing and pretend. And just hope we never see the headline we fear one morning.

[fotze2]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Why doesn't he kill himself? Seems like the honourable thing to do imo. Am I out to lunch on that? I understand the mental illness component, but he has to be a POS on top of that to not provide a semblance of peace to the victims' families by ending things.

They are never going to get peace or even a semblance of it. But a giant air conditioning unit falling off a building on to him, oh well.

Cancer doesn't know its cancer, it's just doing what its made to do, it's not an #######, do we feel bad when its cut out and incinerate it? We go above and beyond, we let it sit in a cell and we feed it to keep it alive.

Maybe he can have a life working at some retail outlet and marry some complete idiot. Is that benefit to society worth the risk of another multiple murder. Hells no.

I am totally against capital punishment, but wondering why someone doesn't off themself when confronted what they have done is not unreasonable. Because I would kill myself the first second I could if I woke up to that carnage I had caused and I am sure Sliver is in the same boat.