Ongoing thread for Neal/Lucic discussion

[Redrum]

I agree. Luckily he could pot 93 goals and the Oilers are still a lottery team, and he would still be a -30 or lower. Getting rid of him is all that mattered and the Flames did it.

[Travis Munroe]

All the talk about "if only we let him have his bounce back year with us"

He wasn't going to have a bounce-back year with us given where he would slot in.

Lindholm taking full advantage of the top line is what put us in this position to start with.

The signing wasn't bad at the time with the intention of having Neal on the top line.

Instead we got this Lindholm guy who exceeded all expectations and put a wrench in the wheel of the master plan.... a problem that has cost the flames some long term cap space but in exchange for a guy who has been our best player all year.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Travis Munroe

All the talk about "if only we let him have his bounce back year with us"

He wasn't going to have a bounce-back year with us given where he would slot in.

Lindholm taking full advantage of the top line is what put us in this position to start with.

The signing wasn't bad at the time with the intention of having Neal on the top line.

Instead we got this Lindholm guy who exceeded all expectations and put a wrench in the wheel of the master plan.... a problem that has cost the flames some long term cap space but in exchange for a guy who has been our best player all year.

Neal - Monahan - Gaudreau was never a very good idea really. I think that is the root of the problem with the signing.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by stang

I love this. Just take out this and he’s this. If you took out all the games he didn’t score last year, he’d be a goal per game scorer!

Take out Janko scoring in the last game and his stats look different too.

Come and crow when he disappears.

[mrdonkey]

The truth is being stretched so hard in this thread you could spread it on toast.

Neal sucked last year, yes. We will never know if he could have bounced back here. I suspect he could have in the right circumstances, but his relationship with the organization was cratered to the point of no return. At the same time, Lucic is sucking just as much this year as he did in Edmonton. They took on the worst, most immovable contract in the entire league. This was never a trade the Flames could win.

It’s ok to admit Treliving got fleeced. And it’s ok to admit he had no other choice.

What I don’t get is the need to try and spin Lucic as if he’s some sort of contributor. He’s a $5+ million McGrattan, and Neal has directly contributed to points in the standings. The Flames lost the trade. Moving on?

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

The truth is being stretched so hard in this thread you could spread it on toast.

Get over yourself. It's not the "truth", it's your opinion.

It's okay to have others disagree with you.

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by the2bears

Get over yourself. It's not the "truth", it's your opinion.



It's okay to have others disagree with you.

Neal: 12G, 2A
Lucic: 0G, 3A and “intangibles”

Ok, must be my imagination.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

Neal: 12G, 2A
Lucic: 0G, 3A and “intangibles”

Ok, must be my imagination.

All those points, and still a drag on his team, which seems to be winning in spite of his poor play.

I think if you look, no one is saying Lucic is some great player. Some have said they like his play in his role.

I’m saying Neal is nad news and will bust out eventually. He’s scoring now, but he’s pretty much just replacing Chiasson’s production, which tells me any player who can stand near the net will get the same power play chances.

[Karl]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

All those points, and still a drag on his team, which seems to be winning in spite of his poor play.

I think if you look, no one is saying Lucic is some great player. Some have said they like his play in his role.

I’m saying Neal is nad news and will bust out eventually. He’s scoring now, but he’s pretty much just replacing Chiasson’s production, which tells me any player who can stand near the net will get the same power play chances.

Neal is totally bad news for people's balls.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

James Neal already has more goals than Milan Lucic is likely to get in 4 long, expensive, protected years as a Calgary Flame.

If someone’s excel sheet suggests Lucic has been better this is a good time to realize the model is the problem because the alternative is ludicrous. 12 goals and 17 mins a night is bad. 0 goals and 12 mins a night is good? Dumb.

The only numbers that matter are goals, assists, and wins. It’s still possible Lucic punches someone to lead the flames to an emotional playoff victory. IMO there is no other scenario where taking on that contract is a success for the Flames.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Bend it like Bourgeois

James Neal already has more goals than Milan Lucic is likely to get in 4 long, expensive, protected years as a Calgary Flame.

If someone’s excel sheet suggests Lucic has been better this is a good time to realize the model is the problem because the alternative is ludicrous. 12 goals and 17 mins a night is bad. 0 goals and 12 mins a night is good? Dumb.

The only numbers that matter are goals, assists, and wins. It’s still possible Lucic punches someone to lead the flames to an emotional playoff victory. IMO there is no other scenario where taking on that contract is a success for the Flames.

What makes anyone think we are talking about point production? But in that case, what were Chiasson numbers last year? This year?

[Resolute 14]

Big team, physical team. The kind of game we acquired Lucic for.

And oh look. His lack of speed was often an issue, the play died on his stick nearly every time the puck got to him, and he did nothing physically to get the Blues off their game.

Honestly, some of these statistical models look far more like searching for something to justify the conclusion you want.

[Matt Reeeeead]

He is horrendous offensively but does quietly push the puck in the right direction up the ice which does have an indirect benefit on goal prevention.

Neal is kind of the opposite at thus point, with his impacts being more obvious, but arguably isn’t that impactful when understanding the context of how it has happened.


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[monkeyman]

Yeah, Lucic was the reason we lost that game in overtime.

[monkeyman]

The worst part about the Lucic trade is it lead to this thread.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Big team, physical team. The kind of game we acquired Lucic for.

And oh look. His lack of speed was often an issue, the play died on his stick nearly every time the puck got to him, and he did nothing physically to get the Blues off their game.

Honestly, some of these statistical models look far more like searching for something to justify the conclusion you want.

I actually thought his big hit at 2-0 was a bit of a momentum change. But maybe that was just optimism. It was still a long while until they broke through.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Bend it like Bourgeois

James Neal already has more goals than Milan Lucic is likely to get in 4 long, expensive, protected years as a Calgary Flame.

If someone’s excel sheet suggests Lucic has been better this is a good time to realize the model is the problem because the alternative is ludicrous. 12 goals and 17 mins a night is bad. 0 goals and 12 mins a night is good? Dumb.

The only numbers that matter are goals, assists, and wins. It’s still possible Lucic punches someone to lead the flames to an emotional playoff victory. IMO there is no other scenario where taking on that contract is a success for the Flames.

Really Neal's +/- doesn't really matter. The Oilers badly needed secondary scoring and he's providing that by scoring more goals than even McDavid. The trade is still a massive win for the Oilers regardless of Neal's +/- rating.

[Saqe]

Both players are bad. But I'd rather have a bad player that scores goals than a one that doesn't.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

Neal: 12G, 2A
Lucic: 0G, 3A and “intangibles”

Ok, must be my imagination.

I mentioned it earlier. The role Neal has in Edmonton right now would be the equivalent of him in Lindholm or Tkachuk role on the PP1 or replacing Mangipane 5v5. Neal is not better than any of those players mentioned. His goals are irrelevant because he would never be in that role on the Flames. A better way to look at it is how many points would Neal have as a bottom six forward or the 13th that he finished the season with. I don't know why it is so difficult to understand Neal does not slot into the Flames lineup anywhere.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Really Neal's +/- doesn't really matter. The Oilers badly needed secondary scoring and he's providing that by scoring more goals than even McDavid. The trade is still a massive win for the Oilers regardless of Neal's +/- rating.

Except he hasn't added anything to the team, he is simply getting the opportunities that others were getting before him. This post says it best:

Originally Posted by Itse

Oilers scoring after 18 games last season:
Draisaitl + McDavid 21 goals
Chiasson 6
Caggiula 6
RNH 4
12 other guys combine for 15 goals, with nobody having more than 2.

Oilers scoring this season:
Draisaitl + McDavid 22 goals
Neal 12
Kassian 4
10 other guys combine for 13 goals, with nobody having more than 2.

As expected, Neal has done nothing to improve their overall scoring. He's just getting fed the opportunities others used to get. His personal numbers are way up, as expected, but their overall scoring is actually down by a goal compared to last season.