Making a Murderer - NetFlix series

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Locke

Yeah, I'd like to agree with that because watching Dassey's interrogation and cross-examination there is no way that kid should be in jail.

However, if you release Dassey then you have to admit that his coerced confession prompted the press conference that clouded the judgement of the jurors that convicted Avery and you pretty much have to let him go too.

I am not 100% sure that Avery didnt do it, theres a lot of coincidences here but what I can say is that there sure as hell, based on the documentary and the evidence they showed, there wouldnt be enough evidence for me to convict him either.

Honestly I feel that the inclusion of Dassey's original confession is what tipped the scales against Avery.

I pretty much have the same opinion.

I think Avery should get a new trial, but I'm also not convinced of his innocence. That being said, there is enough evidence of police and state misconduct that he should be released for technical reasons, and as you say any trial would be a formality at most. Releasing Avery may in fact be releasing a murderer. That being said, he's already spent decades in jail. It may have also been his first stint in jail that turned him into the supposed monster he became. Spending almost the entirety of your 20s and 30s in a maximum security prison for violent offenders is not exactly going to do wonders for your personality.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by blankall

I pretty much have the same opinion.

I think Avery should get a new trial, but I'm also not convinced of his innocence. That being said, there is enough evidence of police and state misconduct that he should be released for technical reasons, and as you say any trial would be a formality at most. Releasing Avery may in fact be releasing a murderer. That being said, he's already spent decades in jail. It may have also been his first stint in jail that turned him into the supposed monster he became. Spending almost the entirety of your 20s and 30s in a maximum security prison for violent offenders is not exactly going to do wonders for your personality.

The crazy part is, if you think about it. The guy has spent 28 years in jail at this point. In most places you dont spend that much time in jail, without parole, for almost any offence.

[GreatWhiteEbola]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I thought it was said in the documentary that at first count, 7 of the 12 jurors did not believe Avery was guilty, 3 were undecided, and 2 believed he was guilty.

It was those 2 that wouldn't budge for anything, and that stalemate eventually turned the rest of the jury.

My recollection was 7 Not Guilty, 3 Guilty, and 2 Undecided in an initial vote. The excused juror stated that there were a few in the jury that had very strong opinions and wouldn't budge on their position. My thought is that it was the 3 that believed him to be guilty from the outset were the ones that swayed the others.

How can it be ignored that the law enforcement lied throughout the investigation, how is it Manitowoc County officials are not held accountable for their actions? To me, it is painfully obvious that Lenk, and Colborn should have been 10,000 miles away from the crime scene and any investigation due to their involvement in the wrongful incarceration lawsuit against Manitowoc County. Colborn in cross examination about the license plate looked like a man that had just been caught in a lie, now that could have been done through clever editing on the film makers part, but still the audio recordings are damning evidence that he had the vehicle....

There's just so much that doesn't seem to add up...from the lack of DNA in garage, to the lack of DNA from Dassey.

Why was the ex and the roommate never properly investigated, the deleted voicemails?

Why was the one searcher given a camera? She was a person that had no reason to be given special treatment above the others. Guided by God? What does that mean?

MIND BOTTLING!

[Locke]

Originally Posted by GreatWhiteEbola

My recollection was 7 Not Guilty, 3 Guilty, and 2 Undecided in an initial vote. The excused juror stated that there were a few in the jury that had very strong opinions and wouldn't budge on their position. My thought is that it was the 3 that believed him to be guilty from the outset were the ones that swayed the others.

How can it be ignored that the law enforcement lied throughout the investigation, how is it Manitowoc County officials are not held accountable for their actions? To me, it is painfully obvious that Lenk, and Colborn should have been 10,000 miles away from the crime scene and any investigation due to their involvement in the wrongful incarceration lawsuit against Manitowoc County. Colborn in cross examination about the license plate looked like a man that had just been caught in a lie, now that could have been done through clever editing on the film makers part, but still the audio recordings are damning evidence that he had the vehicle....

There's just so much that doesn't seem to add up...from the lack of DNA in garage, to the lack of DNA from Dassey.

Why was the ex and the roommate never properly investigated, the deleted voicemails?

Why was the one searcher given a camera? She was a person that had no reason to be given special treatment above the others. Guided by God? What does that mean?

MIND BOTTLING!

Half of the Manitowoc County Sheriff's department should be sitting in their own jail.

[underGRADFlame]

Steven Avery Juror says two jurors related county employees

[Yamer]

The gut-wrenching, heart-breaking part of this all was and continues to be Brendan Dassey. There is no way that person should be sitting in a jail cell for the rest of his life based on the evidence. He had a group of career-driven vultures taking advantage of him. And when you combine that with 2 sets of incompetent (and in one case corrupt) public defenders this is a kid that had no chance.

How his second pair of lawyers didn't pick apart that confession tape, and let it keep playing to the point that he asked if he would be out of there in time for his project at school is baffling. This was clearly a person that had no grasp of what was going on.

Pitiful.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Locke

The crazy part is, if you think about it. The guy has spent 28 years in jail at this point. In most places you dont spend that much time in jail, without parole, for almost any offence.

It's a very bizarre way to handle jail sentences. Yes sentences are partially about justice for the victims and to act as a deterrent. However, they're also about rehabilitation. Giving someone to life (meaning their actual life and not 20 years) without parole is locking them up and throwing away the key.

It's also baffling how Brendan was charged. He was charged as a party to Avery's larger murder 1 claim. Even if everything the state says is true, Brandon didn't actually commit murder 1. What he did was murder 2. He showed up to a murder/rape that was already being committed and supposedly started taking part. Murder 1 requires premeditation. No one ever accused Brandon of that, but somehow he gets slapped with the Murder 1 charge since he was a party to Avery's plans and not tried under his own charges.

Murder 2 in Wisconsin would have allowed for lighter sentencing. Particularly with a case involving a minor under the influence of his uncle. It's possible this may have been one of the "plea bargains" offered, but the simple fact is that he did not, even if you believe everything the prosecution says, commit murder 1.

[Locke]

There was also a bit of fear-mongering going on.

“If they could frame Steven Avery, they could do it to me.” That’s how a juror in the Steven Avery case featured in Netflix’s Making a Murderer recently explained to filmmakers why he voted Avery guilty of murder in 2005, despite believing Avery was innocent.

This particular juror told us that he believes law enforcement tried to frame Steven Avery because of the $36 million lawsuit against law enforcement that Steven had pending when he was charged for Teresa Halbach’s murder. And this juror thought that Steven was innocent and should get a new trial.

We naturally asked, if you believed that why did you vote the way you did? And this person told us that it was a decision about self-preservation. The person lived in the county, feared for their safety, and also said, “If they could frame Steven Avery, they could do it to me.”

http://time.com/4167915/making-a-mur...n-avery-juror/

Thats a very good point. Local judge, local jury, local police who have all basically been shown to be morally ambiguous after the 1985 debacle and yet escaped without any punishment or reprimand whatsoever.

[GGG]

What ever happened to his wrongful conviction law suit. He should still win that regardless of if he did or didn't convict the murder later on.

[Krovikan]

Originally Posted by GGG

What ever happened to his wrongful conviction law suit. He should still win that regardless of if he did or didn't convict the murder later on.

He settled for ~400k so he could pay legal fees

[underGRADFlame]

Originally Posted by GGG

What ever happened to his wrongful conviction law suit. He should still win that regardless of if he did or didn't convict the murder later on.

He settled for $450,000 from the initial suite of $36,000,000 and in the settlement neither the Sheriff department nor the county had to admit guilt.

[Thor]

My guess is no one believes the Cops killed her, so who could it have been.

[Krovikan]

Originally Posted by Thor

My guess is no one believes the Cops killed her, so who could it have been.

Ex bf, family, friend, the other client she visited. Doesn't sound like they investigated any other option but Avery, who could be guilty.

[underGRADFlame]

I've watched 9 of the 10 episodes, while I'm not sure that Avery didn't kill her, but he sure shouldn't have been convicted based on the evidence put forth. Reasonable doubt... There is no way Avery or Dassey could have cleaned up the blood, there would have been traces left behind. The lack of evidence at the supposed crime scene pokes the only hole needed for a reasonable doubt. Both deserve new trials.

[Kjesse]

Originally Posted by underGRADFlame

I've watched 9 of the 10 episodes, while I'm not sure that Avery didn't kill her, but he sure shouldn't have been convicted based on the evidence put forth. Reasonable doubt... There is no way Avery or Dassey could have cleaned up the blood, there would have been traces left behind. The lack of evidence at the supposed crime scene pokes the only hole needed for a reasonable doubt. Both deserve new trials.

I'm about to start watching this but have read a pile on it already... wouldn't they have burned whatever they used to clean up? The Dassey fellow said they used turpentine or paint thinner to clean up, were solvent smells found in the garage?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Delgar

I'm about to start watching this but have read a pile on it already... wouldn't they have burned whatever they used to clean up? The Dassey fellow said they used turpentine or paint thinner to clean up, were solvent smells found in the garage?

You'll have to see/hear this Dassey kid to understand why this doesn't fly. It makes sense if you just read that he confessed, but that falls apart pretty fast.

If what that kid confessed to seeing/taking part in that trailer actually happened, there'd be something to see, clean up or not. They'd have to burn the whole trailer down.

[mrkajz44]

What a great series, I usually avoid binge watching stuff on Netflix, but this was clearly an exception.

The whole Avery case is tough to say. I'd say that I would have enough doubt about his guilt to likely vote no based on what I saw in the documentary. But the trial was 6 weeks long, it's hard to say if what was omitted might have been important to a decision.

Dassey though, it just makes me mad. They basically used him as a puppet to get to Avery and now that guy's life is ruined. I highly doubt he had anything to do with it - I believe the video game / TV story he told on the stand. The fact that he asked if he could be back for 6th period clearly showed he had no idea what was going on during his "interrogation". Avery getting nailed probably sealed his fate.

As for Len, what a dofus. You can tell he just loved the cameras pointing at him, and still does. The only defense I have for him is that he thought Brandon was guilty, so therefore his best course of action would be to get a plea bargain. That's why I think Dassey's appeals are not winning; its hard to say Len didn't have a duty of care (or whatever the term) to Dassey, as a plea bargin would be the best option for a guilty person.

For those that watched Serial - is this similar? I think I might see that next, because this just had me so engrossed.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Delgar

I'm about to start watching this but have read a pile on it already... wouldn't they have burned whatever they used to clean up? The Dassey fellow said they used turpentine or paint thinner to clean up, were solvent smells found in the garage?

Two things:

1. You can clean up with turpentine/paint thinner/bleach and it will destroy all DNA but there will still be evidence of blood. They found nothing. Now, this isnt Sliver's sterile garage or anything either where you do a quick hose down and you're good. If what they say happened actually happened there are countless items that would have had SOMETHING on them. Blood, DNA, GSR, something. There are literally thousands of items of stuff in that garage and not one of them had a spec of anything.

2. Dassey is unreliable. If you see the interrogations of him you'll get it. He would say that he rode a unicorn into Valhalla while slaying the Loch Ness Monster if they told him to and he thought it would make them go away, leave him alone and let him go home.

[flamesrule_kipper34]

Originally Posted by mrkajz44

What a great series, I usually avoid binge watching stuff on Netflix, but this was clearly an exception.

The whole Avery case is tough to say. I'd say that I would have enough doubt about his guilt to likely vote no based on what I saw in the documentary. But the trial was 6 weeks long, it's hard to say if what was omitted might have been important to a decision.

Dassey though, it just makes me mad. They basically used him as a puppet to get to Avery and now that guy's life is ruined. I highly doubt he had anything to do with it - I believe the video game / TV story he told on the stand. The fact that he asked if he could be back for 6th period clearly showed he had no idea what was going on during his "interrogation". Avery getting nailed probably sealed his fate.

As for Len, what a dofus. You can tell he just loved the cameras pointing at him, and still does. The only defense I have for him is that he thought Brandon was guilty, so therefore his best course of action would be to get a plea bargain. That's why I think Dassey's appeals are not winning; its hard to say Len didn't have a duty of care (or whatever the term) to Dassey, as a plea bargin would be the best option for a guilty person.

For those that watched Serial - is this similar? I think I might see that next, because this just had me so engrossed.

Similar, however Serial was a podcast.

But definitely gave me very similar vibes to it...however bigger feeling of unjust at the end of this one.

[ben voyonsdonc]

Originally Posted by Delgar

I'm about to start watching this but have read a pile on it already... wouldn't they have burned whatever they used to clean up? The Dassey fellow said they used turpentine or paint thinner to clean up, were solvent smells found in the garage?

That garage was a complete garbage pile. I can't imagine how they could have cleaned up every single drop of blood in there - especially considering that both of them are far, far from being crime scene specialists.